Buying an Early Registration Exemption

[Darkgreen]

https://www.pdga.com/announcements/pdga-competition-committee-announces-early-registration-exemptions

I don't know how I feel about this. People with money to spend will be able jump to the front of the line by buying a sponsorship.

 

[brutalbrutus]

They've been doing this at BG Ams for a couple years.

 

[riltim]

How would you feel if you sponsored an event and didn't get a chance to play in it? This makes sense to me.

 

[BuzzzChief]

Ledgestone did it this year, right now the only way to register is to buy a hole sponsorship or a merchandise package. So far the event is something like 15-18% full (depending on division). Seems to me that it's a good way to raise more $$$ without affecting things too much.

 

[JC17393]

They're just codifying something that's been tacitly allowed for years. It's not as though any of these practices have every been explicitly disallowed, and they've all been used in various events for years. This is basically to end the debate some have raised that the rules don't already allow it.

The one thing I like about the rule is there will be caps on how many players can early register as club members or sponsors. I have witnessed tournaments filling entirely on "sponsor" entries before official registration opened, which I found patently unfair. If everyone paid an extra $25 or $50 or whatever the sponsorship was, is it really a sponsorship or did the TD trick everyone into paying a higher entry fee than originally advertised?

 

[biscoe]

They're just codifying something that's been tacitly allowed for years. It's not as though any of these practices have every been explicitly disallowed, and they've all been used in various events for years. This is basically to end the debate some have raised that the rules don't already allow it.

The one thing I like about the rule is there will be caps on how many players can early register as club members or sponsors. I have witnessed tournaments filling entirely on "sponsor" entries before official registration opened, which I found patently unfair. If everyone paid an extra $25 or $50 or whatever the sponsorship was, is it really a sponsorship or did the TD trick everyone into paying a higher entry fee than originally advertised?

If they all willingly paid it does it matter?

 

[JC17393]

If they all willingly paid it does it matter?

Not from their perspective.

I only question whether it can be called sponsorship rather than simply the entry fee. Like when the TD does the finances for the event, does he list gross entry for MPO as the $50 it was listed as or the $75 ($50 + $25 sponsorship) that every entrant paid? If it's the former, it seems like a bit of a loophole that could be exploited by a shrewd TD. Why not call every entry fee $10 no matter the actual amount paid and the rest is "sponsorship" that the TD can do with as he pleases? Meeting payout requirements would be a cinch. At least this new rule closes out that possibility.

 

[DavidSauls]

I like it, but it doesn't go far enough.

Some events are open to those who can type fastest in a flash online registration. That's not a great method, either.

I'm TD of one of those events, and we're scrambling to find a better solution. Our hopes to go to multiple weekends ran into a crowded local calendar. So we're still working on it.

 

[aredoubles]

There was a recent episode of the Planet Money podcast that discussed how the NYC Marathon deals with limited spots and massive demand, in the fairest ways they could find. Not sure how much would work with disc golf tournaments.

From my recollection,
- The main pool gets in through a random lottery. You apply in advance, and are notified if you get in. Obviously fair, but doesn't guarantee you a spot if you desperately want in.
- If you don't want to deal with the lottery, and want to guarantee a spot, you can:
-- Donate a large sum to charities selected by the organizers (payment-based), or
-- Qualify through good performances at feeder events (merit-based), or
-- Be a popular touring pro that gets invited by the organizers (merit-based), or
-- Volunteer a certain number of hours at local events (commitment-based)

For the average disc golf tournament with 70-100 players, these are probably total overkill. But worth throwing out as ideas, on how different kinds of fairness can be addressed.

Regarding paying for hole/tournament sponsorship, that money is going directly towards the TD's efforts to support and run the tournament. Plenty of discussion already on this forum regarding how TDs need more support. So I don't have a problem with sponsors getting in early out of gratitude, as they are making the tournament possible in the first place. And like others have said, this already seems to be common practice anyway.

 

[puttlikeablowfly]

Ledgestone did it this year

Ability for sponsors to register first at Ledgestone started at least a few years ago.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Not from their perspective.

I only question whether it can be called sponsorship rather than simply the entry fee. Like when the TD does the finances for the event, does he list gross entry for MPO as the $50 it was listed as or the $75 ($50 + $25 sponsorship) that every entrant paid? If it's the former, it seems like a bit of a loophole that could be exploited by a shrewd TD. Why not call every entry fee $10 no matter the actual amount paid and the rest is "sponsorship" that the TD can do with as he pleases? Meeting payout requirements would be a cinch. At least this new rule closes out that possibility.

I know the first couple years they did it at BG Ams, there was also a larger/better player pack. I think you got at least one more disc and a collared dry fit with your name and PDGA# on it instead of the basic event logo dryfit everyone else got. So, its not like he was just pocketing the extra $25 or whatever it was more than the normal entry fee.

 

[JC17393]

I know the first couple years they did it at BG Ams, there was also a larger/better player pack. I think you got at least one more disc and a collared dry fit with your name and PDGA# on it instead of the basic event logo dryfit everyone else got. So, its not like he was just pocketing the extra $25 or whatever it was more than the normal entry fee.

Wasn't suggesting that a TD would be pocketing the money, just that one could manipulate the financial report any way he wishes. I'm picturing something along the lines of charging everyone $50 for a B-tier but calling it a $10 entry and a (mandatory) $40 sponsorship. Pay out every dime of that $50 and no more and as long as there are at least 19 pros, and you can claim the added cash threshold is met without actually adding a single dollar outside of what the pro players paid in (19 x $40 = $760). Perhaps within the rules but certainly unethical. New rule prevents it entirely.

I don't think any TD ever actually did anything like that, but as I said before, I have seen a tournament fill to capacity with "sponsors" before open registration began. The TD operated as he had intended (called sponsorship sponsorship) which is fine since he didn't set out to create that dilemma, but it opened my eyes to the potential for abuse.

 

[Three Putt]

I like it, but it doesn't go far enough.

Some events are open to those who can type fastest in a flash online registration. That's not a great method, either.

I'm TD of one of those events, and we're scrambling to find a better solution. Our hopes to go to multiple weekends ran into a crowded local calendar. So we're still working on it.

Do you remember when we used to have to go down to the record store to get line numbers so when concert tickets went on sale for the really big shows you would have a spot in the line? Good times. We used to have to drive to wherever the concert was, get the line ticket, go home and come back some other day to stand in a line to actually buy the tickets. I think about that when my daughter is complaining about planning her day around when ticket sales go live on a website; I had to plan two separate trips to Kansas City just to get a nosebleed ticket to see The Who, then come back a third time to actually see the show. Kids these days... :|

 

[_MTL_]

State Coordinators were receiving A LOT of complaints about early registration and how it conflicted with the competition manual. This got sent up the chain by multiple state coordinators and we arrived at this.

Personally, I think this is a fantastic solution.

The PDGA should not tell TD's you can't do this. There are too many variables such as a club members, high dollar sponsors, etc.

The PDGA also shouldn't let TD's do whatever they want. There has to be standards and expectations at all PDGA events regardless of where it is.

The Comp committee took all of this in consideration and arrived at this middle ground. I don't necessarily agree with it perfectly - I would have like to seen the caps tier based - but this really is fantastic.

 

[DavidSauls]

Do you remember when we used to have to go down to the record store to get line numbers so when concert tickets went on sale for the really big shows you would have a spot in the line? Good times. We used to have to drive to wherever the concert was, get the line ticket, go home and come back some other day to stand in a line to actually buy the tickets. I think about that when my daughter is complaining about planning her day around when ticket sales go live on a website; I had to plan two separate trips to Kansas City just to get a nosebleed ticket to see The Who, then come back a third time to actually see the show. Kids these days... :|

And I remember people camping out overnight in long lines, for sporting event & concert tickets. Not for the events, just the tickets.

I also remember ambushing a disc golf tournament TD at his house, to hand him my registration in the days of paper registrations, for a fast -filling event.

I don't know the answer to demand-exceeding-supply. At least those concert tickets from decades ago earned their tickets by their extra effort and inconvenience. In disc golf, spots are going to those who can type fastest, and I'm not sure that's the best qualifier.

They're not putting any more weekends onto the calendar, and not every event can expand the field, and I'm not sure the market approach of raising entry fees to meet demand is desirable, either.

 

[Rob Martin]

They're just codifying something that's been tacitly allowed for years. It's not as though any of these practices have every been explicitly disallowed, and they've all been used in various events for years. This is basically to end the debate some have raised that the rules don't already allow it.

The one thing I like about the rule is there will be caps on how many players can early register as club members or sponsors. I have witnessed tournaments filling entirely on "sponsor" entries before official registration opened, which I found patently unfair. If everyone paid an extra $25 or $50 or whatever the sponsorship was, is it really a sponsorship or did the TD trick everyone into paying a higher entry fee than originally advertised?

At the 2018 TD Director's Cup it was explicitly disallowed via PDGA personnel.

That being said, as a TD, I think it is reasonable to allow up to 10% of tournament spots to be reserved for those that are donating $.

 

[ru4por]

I ponied up a tee sign sponsorship fee for Ledgestone. I obviously have no issues with the practice. It saves me the stress and hassle of "speed sign up" and gives a great opportunity to promote my club. I suppose a club could even be reimbursing a club member for the sponsorship, if so inclined. I did not follow such a path, but having the chance to promote Ann Arbor disc golf is pretty cool, IMO.

I did assume the money was going to a separate and unique fund. I envisioned some going to the courses, helping to defray the cost of water, parties and such. I could be wrong. I would hope, moving forward maybe some guidelines on how this money is used, could be set up through the PDGA.

 

[biscoe]

The PDGA also shouldn't let TD's do whatever they want. There has to be standards and expectations at all PDGA events regardless of where it is.

Standards and expectations: PDGA rules of play are upheld, PDGA gets their money, Tier standards are upheld in regard to payout,etc.

Regarding registration for their events TD's should indeed be able to do whatever they want.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

How would you feel if you sponsored an event and didn't get a chance to play in it? This makes sense to me.

Seems pretty easy to make one's sponsorship contingent on an entry...no?
Ask for what you want?

 

[ru4por]

Standards and expectations: PDGA rules of play are upheld, PDGA gets their money, Tier standards are upheld in regard to payout,etc.

Regarding registration for their events TD's should indeed be able to do whatever they want.

Agree, but I think transparency is appropriate and likely to be more profitable in the long run. Now I kind of want to know what my hole sponsorship for Ledgestone is going to. Guess I should have thought about that before giving up my money. :doh: