Can we do what Merion did?

[Sadjo]

I play both Disc Golf and Ball Golf. I'm also a big fan of watching the 4 golf majors on TV. The US Open used a relatively short course in comparison to more recent US Opens. When the course ended up getting lots of rain leading up to the tournament, several commentators and former players all thought we'd see the lowest scores in US Open history.

That was not the case.

The folks at the USGA were able to challenge the world's best players (on a 'short' course) where anything near par for the four round tournament was considered a good round and would challenge for the title.

What can Disc Golf Course Designers, the PDGA and local clubs do to put that kind of challenge on a major in our sport?

I ask this question because of the comments made about folks seeing crazy under par scores for events in Disc Golf.

 

[sansho]

Well the USGA pretty much has as much money to do whatever they want to any course for the US Open. And they have 6+ years to do it. So they can add water hazards, add bunkers, make current bunkers bigger, add different types of grass for the rough.

I don't know if it's really comparable just because of the style of play (rough, and sand causing different issues in ball golf) and because of the funding the USGA has to do whatever they want.

If the PDGA spent crazy money on a course it would be possible to make it more challenging, but I don't think you're gonna have the winner of a Disc Golf Major at even par after 4 rounds.

Oh and I play both disc and ball golf =)

 

[Lewis]

What can Disc Golf Course Designers, the PDGA and local clubs do to put that kind of challenge on a major in our sport?

I ask this question because of the comments made about folks seeing crazy under par scores for events in Disc Golf.

With a different concept of par, disc golf will have a much harder time chipping away at the "under par" scores turned in by our touring pros.

 

[Dave242]

The easiest (only?) way to accomplish this is to make a much smaller target. Then upshots from inside 200' start to mean something on the score card. As it is, anything inside 200' is almost an automatic 2 for any disc golfer with much skill (on open to semi-open holes).

Any other method to boost SSA to get it close to Par (and I am talking about when par is set correctly) is booed out of the building for being gimmicky, or unfair (random punishment where the penalty is not felt to fit the crime), or boring (lots of forced throw segments that are very short).

 

[_MTL_]

Unless pars are incorrect or the basket is made much much smaller, no chance anyone ever finishes at Even par or anywhere close.

 

[rd.bittle]

I think it could be done but most disc golfers would throw a fit.

"The rough was too punishing."
"The fairways were too narrow."
"The holes weren't fair, it was too much luck not skill."
"The OBs were too gimmicky."
"Mandos are just a gimmick."
"Water hazards were unfair."

And so on.

 

[TimBoyMN]

I just have to throw this out there:

Who cares what par is? It's some arbitrary number that really doesn't matter. If you want pros to have "higher" scores than just make every hole a par 2.

As long as the field is competitive than in all reality it makes exactly no difference what par is set at.

 

[JeremyKShort]

One thing I see a lot at many courses is a drastically inflated par. Putting 4's and 5's on holes that should be a 3 or maybe a 4 at most. To pick on a particular local course, Harry Meyers has a lot of 4 and 5's. None of the 4's really need to be par 4's. We had guys in our group eagleing the 5's. Having several of these holes turns a par into a -5. The holes really need to be set with appropriate pars. I don't know how much this happens, but I've seen a number of courses this way.

 

[sansho]

I think it could be done but most disc golfers would throw a fit.

"The rough was too punishing."
"The fairways were too narrow."
"The holes weren't fair, it was too much luck not skill."
"The OBs were too gimmicky."
"Mandos are just a gimmick."
"Water hazards were unfair."

And so on.

The point is for MAJORS though.

Making a course specifically tough for BIG events.

Most disc golfers making these comments, wouldn't be competing in a Major.

 

[Cgkdisc]

DG putting parameters need to be changed so the Gold level putting average is closer to 2 putts probably with smaller targets. The rest of our game is fine including our par definition.

 

[bradharris]

I just have to throw this out there:

Who cares what par is? It's some arbitrary number that really doesn't matter. If you want pros to have "higher" scores than just make every hole a par 2.

As long as the field is competitive than in all reality it makes exactly no difference what par is set at.

From a spectator's perspective it actually is important. Part of the excitement of the golf majors is that you can compare scores pretty accurately regardless of where players are on the course. With major under-par swings, it's hard to say someone with the lowest to-par score is actually in the lead if he's just finishing and the top players are just starting their rounds.

It's nice to be able to watch someone hit a birdie and know that helps improve their position in the field while someone hitting a bogey is backtracking.

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't know if you even need to change putting to get the top scores close to par. It seems you could do it, under most of our varied definitions of "par", by just having a lot more holes with scoring averages of x.3, where players are scrambling to save par, and bogeying if they screw up. But there is great resistance to the notion of holes that are "unbirdieable".

 

[grodney]

According to many accounts at Merion, one of the largest contributing factors was the location of the pins -- not just the deep rough.

There are about 2 ways to mimic harsh pin placements: Directional targets (gimmicky!) and smaller targets (wwaaaaahhhhhh!).

 

[bradharris]

According to many accounts at Merion, one of the largest contributing factors was the location of the pins -- not just the deep rough.

There are about 2 ways to mimic harsh pin placements: Directional targets (gimmicky!) and smaller targets (wwaaaaahhhhhh!).

What about risk/reward pin positions on slopes, near water, near vegetation, etc?

 

[bnbanbury]

I don't know if you even need to change putting to get the top scores close to par. It seems you could do it, under most of our varied definitions of "par", by just having a lot more holes with scoring averages of x.3, where players are scrambling to save par, and bogeying if they screw up. But there is great resistance to the notion of holes that are "unbirdieable".

I agree. I think you could take a course like an iron hill, where the ssa is right at par (72) and then make the course even more difficult for a major championship. In general i think using courses for major tournaments where players can shoot in the mid to low forties is dumb.

 

[bnbanbury]

What about risk/reward pin positions on slopes, near water, near vegetation, etc?

Yeah, I think that the masters cup this year proved the point that scoring can be controlled with pin placements near giant slopes. One of the lower scoring NT events

 

[DavidSauls]

According to many accounts at Merion, one of the largest contributing factors was the location of the pins -- not just the deep rough.

There are about 2 ways to mimic harsh pin placements: Directional targets (gimmicky!) and smaller targets (wwaaaaahhhhhh!).

Changing our definition of the "green", for the purposes of calculating par, could produce a similar effect.

 

[grodney]

What about risk/reward pin positions on slopes, near water, near vegetation, etc?

Yeah, if they're available.

 

[mashnut]

Changing our definition of the "green", for the purposes of calculating par, could produce a similar effect.

To do that, you'd have to either go with strokes to get within 30'ish plus 1 or strokes to get within 200'ish plus 2. Either way you'd get a bunch of griping from people who don't like old courses suddenly becoming par 2 and 500' holes being marked par 3. We're a half stroke off from a reasonable definition of par in a lot of cases, which makes it tough to find the right balance.

 

[DavidSauls]

To do that, you'd have to either go with strokes to get within 30'ish plus 1 or strokes to get within 200'ish plus 2. Either way you'd get a bunch of griping from people who don't like old courses suddenly becoming par 2 and 500' holes being marked par 3. We're a half stroke off from a reasonable definition of par in a lot of cases, which makes it tough to find the right balance.

I don't know where the line is, but I think 100', with obstacles, would do it. I suspect putting from the far edge of this green is about like putting from the far edge of a ball golf green.

That, and admitting that we really have par-2s, and doing away with them on championship courses.

I'm not saying we should, just in the interest of emulating ball golf. Just that we could, with a different definition of par.

We could also use SA (scoring average) par. Or the mean score for a given hole. Either, based on the target skill level, would do it.