Can't get my elbow up high and out at full speed

[stratedge]

TL;DR - I can't stop pulling my elbow down and into my body, so there's no "power pocket" for the disc to get into, and it's infuriating the hell out of me. It's a completely involuntary reaction that I can't seem to undo.



No matter how many different "elbow out" drills I do , I can't keep my elbow out so as to create space for the disc to stay "coiled" until it's past my torso, or, get into and then snap out of the power pocket. Specifically, my elbow drops down too low and the disc can't get in there, and it starts to eject early. My upper arm is still 90 degrees relative to my shoulders horizontally, but it's angled down too low. The disc is still on the correct horizontal plane, but it is now above my elbow as it just ejects outward starting about the middle of my chest. In other words, at slow speeds I can pull the disc to my right pec, but at normal speed it only gets to my mid chest before my elbow gets in the way, and the disc goes around.

It's funny, even when I totally force it and ignore everything else, trying to hold it stupidly high to exaggerate just to know what it feels like, I just can't sustain it. Add a touch of speed to the throw and I feel like I'm forcing the elbow to stay high enough, and getting the disc in the pocket, but I look at the video and there it is, elbow dropping down low at the last moment as the disc gets to my chest. I just don't have any clue what correct should feel like for this.

I've done 100s of reps of the various drills I thought might target this (e.g. beato drill, wide rail type exercise where I'm thinking about my elbow, or dangling my whole arm and get it really relaxed and not tense as I pull through). No matter what I do, there's this speed threshold where as soon as I attempt anything like a normal throw, a slow smooth throw still but a proper throw, muscle memory takes over and I involuntarily "choke up" on the disc.

There's also been this other symptom of my shoulder I am throwing with being shrugged up high, as you can imagine when pulling the elbow in too close... but it's a little more manageable. That is, if I think "keep your right shoulder down/level" as I throw, I can. The elbow still too tight to me though, doesn't fix the primary issue. But the whole thing seems to be I'm tightening up there, and I can't stop it.

Words can't describe how frustrated and angry I am right now. I've been working on just this particular problem daily for a week now, with a throwing net and video camera at my disposal, with a stack of drivers. Everything I try, after I feel I'm making progress, I grab the camera and check... nope. It feels like I'm doing the right thing, but I'm not. I can do 100 reps sequentially... nothing.

Any ideas on a fresh approach would be hugely appreciated. I can't just keep banging my head against the wall on this, I need something different to undo this instinct. Searching this forum, I've seen other people post describing exactly this problem, but I have never seen a solution directly addressing this... replies always seem to focus on their other problems and form flaws.

Other info... I don't have any flexibility or other physical reason I can't do this, it has to be simply a habit / muscle memory. I can throw 400 ft despite this (I only get what I think you would call a "half hit", but it's a pretty good half hit because I've been doing it a few years). Other aspects of my form are decent.

 

[MarkDSM]

Have you tried using your other arm to work on it? ... Seems counterintuitive, but my theory is that the other arm does not have as ingrained bad habits. Train that side and meditate the other into mirroring the new move.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you keep your upper arm wide(>90 degrees, more like 120 degrees)/elbow forward, there shouldn't be any reason for your elbow to drop off plane as then only the lower arm swings the disc from your body. Going through a lower arm sideways hammer swing very slow may help.

I feel like I keep my elbow about nip high and the elbow doesn't really much move relative to the shoulder/s, it's always leading/leveraged well forward of the shoulder. Find a table or counter top and get almost nip high to it, might need to get on your knees or raise a table, swing level across it without hitting the table. If your spine is tilted then you need to tilt the table perpendicular to it.

Your arm should get pulled out taut away from you like an Olympic hammer thrower(one-arm)/ball on string and let the elbow hinge the disc in and then away from your center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ#t=7m

 

[slowplastic]

I was getting the shrugged shoulder thing happening when I was reaching back with my arm, using my shoulder joint. It would cause a disconnect in my shoulder socket from upper body to upper arm, and then the upper arm could never catch up once I started moving forward...it would get pressed back into my chest and my shoulder would shrug upwards. You have to keep the upper arm/elbow kind of locked in place at 90-110 degree range at the shoulder. Use your hips to turn back your torso, and the torso will turn back the upper arm because that is locked in place. Do not reach back with the arm/disc, turn the torso and the arm will have to move. Think of it as a backswing instead of reachback and pretend that the upper arm is heavy and pretty locked in place.

 

[stratedge]

If you keep your upper arm wide(>90 degrees, more like 120 degrees)/elbow forward, there shouldn't be any reason for your elbow to drop off plane as then only the lower arm swings the disc from your body. Going through a lower arm sideways hammer swing very slow may help.

I feel like I keep my elbow about nip high and the elbow doesn't really much move relative to the shoulder/s, it's always leading/leveraged well forward of the shoulder. Find a table or counter top and get almost nip high to it, might need to get on your knees or raise a table, swing level across it without hitting the table. If your spine is tilted then you need to tilt the table perpendicular to it.

Your arm should get pulled out taut away from you like an Olympic hammer thrower(one-arm)/ball on string and let the elbow hinge the disc in and then away from your center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ#t=7m

Thanks, I was thinking along the lines of a physical aid and this is a good idea. Not exactly trivial to setup, but I will see what I can do.

 

[stratedge]

I was getting the shrugged shoulder thing happening when I was reaching back with my arm, using my shoulder joint. It would cause a disconnect in my shoulder socket from upper body to upper arm, and then the upper arm could never catch up once I started moving forward...it would get pressed back into my chest and my shoulder would shrug upwards. You have to keep the upper arm/elbow kind of locked in place at 90-110 degree range at the shoulder. Use your hips to turn back your torso, and the torso will turn back the upper arm because that is locked in place. Do not reach back with the arm/disc, turn the torso and the arm will have to move. Think of it as a backswing instead of reachback and pretend that the upper arm is heavy and pretty locked in place.

Thanks! This really speaks to me because the most recent form correction / improvement I've been working on the last few weeks is keeping the shoulder at 90 degrees, and while I thought I had that, in thinking about this I believe I've maybe got a little bit further to go. I have always had a big reach back and shoulder rotation so I'll try to tone it down a bit and see how that helps. The correlation I talked about wherein when adding a throw and things come apart, is probably a direct correlation to a full reach back.

Will report back.

 

[slowplastic]

To start with, maybe think about your right elbow as the focus of your backswing. Focus on turning the elbow back and only how far back that needs to go, and keep it connected 90+ degrees to the shoulder. The forearm/disc will swing out additionally, but they don't have to go way out there and the elbow does not need to lock open at max reachback. You may lose some control, but it should prevent you from overdoing the reachback/backswing.

Once you feel how the upper arm and shoulder move back, then you can again start focusing on the disc weight. Ultimately you will need to feel the disc and manipulate the disc, but focusing on "reaching back with the disc" incorrectly will definitely isolate you at the shoulder and cause that disconnect.

 

[stratedge]

To start with, maybe think about your right elbow as the focus of your backswing. Focus on turning the elbow back and only how far back that needs to go, and keep it connected 90+ degrees to the shoulder. The forearm/disc will swing out additionally, but they don't have to go way out there and the elbow does not need to lock open at max reachback. You may lose some control, but it should prevent you from overdoing the reachback/backswing.

Once you feel how the upper arm and shoulder move back, then you can again start focusing on the disc weight. Ultimately you will need to feel the disc and manipulate the disc, but focusing on "reaching back with the disc" incorrectly will definitely isolate you at the shoulder and cause that disconnect.

I will... feeling really good about this, it makes too much sense. Can't say enough how much I appreciate this insight! I think you've nailed it. Fixing it will be a challenge but I feel unstuck. I just watched some video and I can see the things you talked about happening.

Until very recently, I wasn't making the full effort to keep the shoulder at 90 degrees, so the disc went straight back and straight forward, and my upper arm collapsed across my chest in both directions to make that happen. I did that for years. Then in attempting to add that angle at the shoulder, I was only focused on the forward pull and not the reach back. In the reach back I am still leading with the disc on my reach back and then rotating my shoulders to turn my back to the basket completely independently ("reaching back with the disc" as you say). Then as I start the pull, I'm attempting to jerk the disc to give it speed into the pocket, and I'm yanking my shoulder back into a >90 degree angle, but it's creating tension throughout the shoulder / arm that never leaves, resulting in that tightness when the disc comes in that is "closing up the pocket". That's where the shrug starts, but visually you can't see it until my arm is by my side. Also my conscious focus on pulling the disc on a straight line, which is really ingrained in me from the more basic throw, my shoulder is folding downward to keep the disc from straying while I struggle to maintain the 90 degree angle at the shoulder. I have to unlock my brain from that perfectly straight line focus, and embrace that sort of out/in/out, wide rail type bounce.

This wide rail thing has clicked differently for me in this context, I don't think I was taking it literally enough. I think I just thought of it as some kind of alternate approach to the form I was chasing, but now I see it as more of a thought process for the prototypical throw. Focus on the anchor (elbow), and let the disc flow like that.

I'll report back in a few days. I can see this taking a lot of reps to solidify.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah it seems like you're understanding the concept much better. I have problems with my hand/the disc raising up nearing the power pocket, but that is a separate issue from the shoulder shrug. At least I've managed to rid myself of that isolated shoulder thing the way I described above, hopefully it works for you too. Plus it really made throwing easier on my shoulder after getting used to it, less snap back from backswing forward...the way you describe it is how it was for me too.

 

[Twistedhorse]

I was getting the shrugged shoulder thing happening when I was reaching back with my arm, using my shoulder joint. It would cause a disconnect in my shoulder socket from upper body to upper arm, and then the upper arm could never catch up once I started moving forward...it would get pressed back into my chest and my shoulder would shrug upwards. You have to keep the upper arm/elbow kind of locked in place at 90-110 degree range at the shoulder. Use your hips to turn back your torso, and the torso will turn back the upper arm because that is locked in place. Do not reach back with the arm/disc, turn the torso and the arm will have to move. Think of it as a backswing instead of reachback and pretend that the upper arm is heavy and pretty locked in place.

Thanks, I'll try this. does it matter of your arm is low or high when you turn the torso ?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks, I'll try this. does it matter of your arm is low or high when you turn the torso ?

Nope.

 

[semisensei]

Yeah it seems like you're understanding the concept much better. I have problems with my hand/the disc raising up nearing the power pocket, but that is a separate issue from the shoulder shrug. At least I've managed to rid myself of that isolated shoulder thing the way I described above, hopefully it works for you too. Plus it really made throwing easier on my shoulder after getting used to it, less snap back from backswing forward...the way you describe it is how it was for me too.

Hey slowplastic, did you ever figure out how to fix that issue with the disc raising up through the power pocket? Grappling with that myself… throws are coming out nose up or with a fair bit of wobble for me.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

I also struggle with all of this. I have a few observations that may or may not be correct, and may or may not be helpful. First, humerus rotation seem's to play a huge role for me. Even if I try to keep it wide rail, I will naturally collapse the pocket and it seems more to do with being externally rotated at reach back. But I saw a shot of Paul throwing an anhyzer where his reach back is... really back. Yet he still gets a great pocket. But I noticed compared ot myself, his disc was wing down (so bottom of disc would be facing camera from side). That is, even though he was at full reach back there was a definite internal humerus rotation. Maybe this made it easier for him to establish the power pocket. (NOTE: In the imges, he's coming right to left and throwing anhyzer)


Separately, Philo swings his arm in a way I've tried to avoid, but it works for him (perhaps) because he seems to reach his top of back swing at a very pronounced "reach out" position.

Lastly, Schusterick is even more interesting. His current form seems a bit janky, but he does this peculiar thing where he reaches back (rounding style), but then corrects to reach out as he settles his weight forward before swinging. Its esp. interesting to see how his disc wing rotates in the process.

 

[lostDoughnut]

i got frustrated with this for awhile. i would see my elbow tuck down and into my chest.

my issue shown below
https://youtu.be/DLo97jXn5Wo?t=204

there could also be some mobility issues?