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DGPT- 2018 Discraft Great Lakes Open

Did she not when she started her putt? What am I missing here? She is outside the circle

What she does at the start of the putt has no bearing, only where her supporting point was at time of release. She needs to have at least one supporting point, in this case her foot, on the ground and behind her lie when the disc is released. Being outside the circle means her momentum can carry her past her lie after the release of the disc. She is clearly airborne with both foot off the ground before she releases the disc. Obvious foot fault.
 

They may not be. Only way that putt in the video is legal is if the marker is in front of his right foot (the second to leave the ground), because if the marker is front of his left foot, he's not in contact with the lie at release. At least with the right foot, it's a bang-bang kind of call whether he's released or not which you're never going to see in real time and therefore going to have a hard time calling.

Hokom's putt referenced earlier you can see both feet off the ground before she throws, even without slowing the video down or pausing it just right.
 
I think this has been argued in the past but don't recall the outcome. Is the grass considered part of the playing surface? Or does the foot have to be on solid ground/tree/bridge or whatever the case may be?
 
The reason that timing matters more than you might think is that it's timing. It's a lot like the foot fault thing in general. To get your foot correctly placed, or to make sure the disc leaves your hand before your foot leaves the ground, means that you have to split your focus between your line - the basket, and what your body is doing. When you remove all thought of your foot placement, then your throw is easier. How much? Well, if you're a rookie, a lot; if you're Paul McBeth, well, a whole lot less. If you're Ricky, apparently not at all since he doesn't appear to worry about it in any way, other then when making comedic videos. Lest someone cry Ricky bashing, the comments here run deep. Set Ricky aside, I admit his stature and presence on lead cards makes him an easy target. I've seen plenty, two mentioned right here, and many over the years.

It can be done correctly, many players do, but enough don't that it should be an issue.

As an aside, I was watching one of the talk podcasts and I saw the questioned raised, is Ricky footfaulting to gain an advantage? That's a lot like asking if someone was born rich to gain an advantage. The fact that someone is getting an advantage doesn't mean they planned it out. "Okay, I'm gonna foot fault to gain an advantage," is not the same thing as foot faulting cause you're not watching. The number of times a player consciously thought to foot fault or even had the thought, "I'm not gonna pay attention because it will get me an advantage," is pretty darned low.
 
I think this has been argued in the past but don't recall the outcome. Is the grass considered part of the playing surface? Or does the foot have to be on solid ground/tree/bridge or whatever the case may be?

I think the grass has to be considered part of the playing surface, because a lot of the time that's the only thing your foot is in contact with.

But, another question, is when does that playing surface provide a "supporting point"? I remember last time trying to find the PDGA definition of supporting point, and either couldn't find it or it's not clearly defined. (Feel free to pre-rube me.)

Anyway, my main point is:
If you're in the act of jumping and your foot is accelerating upwards but barely in contact with a few blades of grass, I wouldn't consider that to be a "supporting point". We're talking about less than one ounce of force. (Or less than about a quarter of a Newton, for you commies out there.) Much less.

The question isn't whether the grass is playing surface, but rather whether that surface is providing support.

Arguing the converse:
If that wispy/fleeting contact with a few blades of grass does constitute a "supporting point", then your arm brushing a branch or leaf would also. Same order of magnitude of contact force providing support. So if you brush a leaf that's ahead of your mark before releasing the throw, you've committed a stance violation.
 
ba98d0bfa2d11ab42bed97ae4bc078e2a3636531.jpg

Wait, so what you're telling me is, Feldbergs step putts and Ulis step putts are the only legal thing now?!...
 
I think this has been argued in the past but don't recall the outcome. Is the grass considered part of the playing surface? Or does the foot have to be on solid ground/tree/bridge or whatever the case may be?

The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken.
Free-standing blades of grass are not capable of supporting the player. Blades of grass being smushed down onto the ground under your shoe are capable of supporting the player.

The bad thing is that it's very difficult to see when your foot has removed its weight from the grass because all the surrounding grass is a few inches tall and obstructs your view. Brushing the grass in front of your lie is no more a penalty than hitting some leaves with your elbow during your throw.
 
ba98d0bfa2d11ab42bed97ae4bc078e2a3636531.jpg

Wait, so what you're telling me is, Feldbergs step putts and Ulis step putts are the only legal thing now?!...

You can putt then jump you can't jump then putt.

Step putts are legal if you putt then step, they are illegal if you step then putt. There is a video of a guy on lead card doing a bunch of illegal step putts, I think it was a Jomez video from a few months ago the guys wasn't a top pro but he did it the entire round. Someone else might be able to remember which tournament it was.
 
Wait, so what you're telling me is, Feldbergs step putts and Ulis step putts are the only legal thing now?!...

Feldberg is generally very good at being legal. His back foot is clearly still on his lie and his front foot is clearly in the air when he releases. He's one of the few players who actually read the rules and designed his putt to clearly fit within the rules.

Uli often still lets his front foot come down too early. If he'd just bend his front knee to delay his foot hitting the ground for another half second he'd never have a problem. It makes the action a bit more of a fall/lunge than a smooth step, but it'd be unquestionably legal.
 
You can putt then jump you can't jump then putt.

Step putts are legal if you putt then step, they are illegal if you step then putt. There is a video of a guy on lead card doing a bunch of illegal step putts, I think it was a Jomez video from a few months ago the guys wasn't a top pro but he did it the entire round. Someone else might be able to remember which tournament it was.

I found it, 8:08 of this video, and it even got a slow-mez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP1xQmZxn6E

You can see his ankle pivoting on the ground with the disc still in his hand. This wasn't the only time he did it during the round.
 
Jump and step putts need to be illegal across the board, this is getting ridiculous.

Videos show how many are illegal and in real time there are never called because they are too close and get no seconds.

To me, Jump and step putts are not in the "spirit" of the game.
 
Can we also get a basket-type/spitout discussion going just to be hitting on all cylinders for a proper post-tournament drag-along discussion.

Like: what if one of Pauls putts would have spit right back out?

Yup! Boy oh boy, another jump putts are illegal discussion. We have already covered par, right? After the basket talk, maybe a longer Teebird page or two would be cool.
 
How about, "If you could only use one disc on the toboggan, what would it be?"


Tweaked with punctuation for better effect:
You can putt then jump. You can't jump then putt.

Step putts are legal if you putt then step. They are illegal if you step then putt.

Correct in content and elegant in it's simplicity.
But it's honestly time to take this to one of the several threads specifically about jump /step putts, and the legality thereof.
 
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