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Does your rear/drive heel need to be off the ground to be "on your toes"?

hisdudeness47

Birdie Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2021
Messages
356
Location
Reno, NV
I've noticed something during backhands. Sometimes I'm actively trying to keep my rear heel off the ground during the 3 step, like I'm walking on my toes like a ballerina with my rear foot, but sometimes I don't. My weight is still on my toes, however. I often throw much better when I'm doing a much looser 3 step where my heel touches the ground. I'm right on the cusp of finding the "less is more" sweet spot, effort-wise. I guess my question is, is there any benefit / drawback to staying up on the rear toe during the walk/run-up and swing? Is this the vertical versus horizontal force debate? Should you theoretically get more at the hit with the extra vertical drop from being on the rear toe? Does it matter?
 
I've noticed something during backhands. Sometimes I'm actively trying to keep my rear heel off the ground during the 3 step, like I'm walking on my toes like a ballerina with my rear foot, but sometimes I don't. My weight is still on my toes, however. I often throw much better when I'm doing a much looser 3 step where my heel touches the ground. I'm right on the cusp of finding the "less is more" sweet spot, effort-wise. I guess my question is, is there any benefit / drawback to staying up on the rear toe during the walk/run-up and swing? Is this the vertical versus horizontal force debate? Should you theoretically get more at the hit with the extra vertical drop from being on the rear toe? Does it matter?

A lot of this is dependent on how you're pushing off/ driving with your rear leg into the plant, or if its just a spot on the ground that you step.

Also foot angle as well makes a difference on this.

If you're trying to be really toe towards the target, you'll want to be more on your toe, if you're more neutral, around 90° to the target, you can get away with being a bit more flat like yo'ure talking about.

If your toe is away from the target, its hard to not be on your heel.
 
I've noticed something during backhands. Sometimes I'm actively trying to keep my rear heel off the ground during the 3 step, like I'm walking on my toes like a ballerina with my rear foot, but sometimes I don't. My weight is still on my toes, however. I often throw much better when I'm doing a much looser 3 step where my heel touches the ground. I'm right on the cusp of finding the "less is more" sweet spot, effort-wise. I guess my question is, is there any benefit / drawback to staying up on the rear toe during the walk/run-up and swing? Is this the vertical versus horizontal force debate? Should you theoretically get more at the hit with the extra vertical drop from being on the rear toe? Does it matter?

The dynamic load and transition move matters more than whether the heel contacts the ground.
 
Depending on how weighted you are on the heel of the rear foot at this point the transition move is either sub-optimal, difficult or impossible.
I'm still interested in this on the dimensions you mention. Part of weighting into the heel is where the balance is from foot to head, I find.

I definitely have struggled with being too "heavy" on the rear foot in transition, getting more "stuck" and inhibiting an efficient shift and fluid action. I have a couple person-specific issues there but the general idea was true there for me too.

Here are examples of relatively high-level moves where heel contact/pressure occurs, but is athletic, quick, and limber and not plodding and stuck.

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Example moves where rear heel contact is less likely to occur, in two different stride patterns in two deceptively athletic dudes:

ViqHhv3.gif


I suppose I currently tend to think that as long as the overall move is well balanced, doesn't inhibit the recruitment of legs' natural athleticism and hip Figure 8 action in transition, and is quick moving foot to foot without breaking the transition from reachback to throw, it can be workable (neither impossible, but potentially difficult). Most efficient/least sub-optimal/how should it account for the person or other features of the move? Still interested.
 
I had heard about her from someone else and was hoping she would start to become more visible. She is awesome.

1. The athletes are coming! The athletes are coming! She is a talented multi-athlete in track and field, including throwing javelin.

2. Body type looks pretty good if you want to more easily throw very far.

3. While she's getting off the rear heel in transition, I still see aggressive athletic posture with good enough tilt in transition including most of the main features you'd want to see. She still gets a weight shift that includes a rear side counterbalance and counterweight, which is a long way more advanced than most people. Her pattern along the swing plane is coming along pretty nicely suggesting her move has picked up a lot of the key principles for generating and transferring force.

4. Looks rhythmic, coordinated, and quick without herkyjerks, etc. I bet she has a lot more in the tank. Awesome.

"Forward engineering" theory would suggest getting more compressed & balanced in transition to free up her move on the drive side means she has more to gain there. When she connects that up with whatever tweaks would turn it from a nose up air bounce into nose down flight, my money would be that she's probably going to have distance potential that pushes well through the current ceiling. Repeatable 500s.

Very, very cool. I hope she sticks with it.
 
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How is this girl able to hit 70mph+ while staying on the heel for so long during the transition?

Amazing athlete. Probably not the most efficient way to throw, but it is a strong linear move (baseball calls it knee slamming). Will Schusterick started pushing off the heel around the time he injured his shoulder, not sure if is cause or effect. He didn't used to do that when he was in prime form.

 
I'm still interested in this on the dimensions you mention. Part of weighting into the heel is where the balance is from foot to head, I find.

I definitely have struggled with being too "heavy" on the rear foot in transition, getting more "stuck" and inhibiting an efficient shift and fluid action. I have a couple person-specific issues there but the general idea was true there for me too.

Here are examples of relatively high-level moves where heel contact/pressure occurs, but is athletic, quick, and limber and not plodding and stuck.

j1MGgiQ.gif


zoUwpS2.gif



Qcjf4mW.gif


eqN1Byt.gif


Example moves where rear heel contact is less likely to occur, in two different stride patterns in two deceptively athletic dudes:

ViqHhv3.gif


I suppose I currently tend to think that as long as the overall move is well balanced, doesn't inhibit the recruitment of legs' natural athleticism and hip Figure 8 action in transition, and is quick moving foot to foot without breaking the transition from reachback to throw, it can be workable (neither impossible, but potentially difficult). Most efficient/least sub-optimal/how should it account for the person or other features of the move? Still interested.
OMG, I haven't been very active here for a while, this new format is kinda funky to get used to with replies and quotes.
I think you've answered a bit and REALLY appreciate the video with Taylor. Simply 99% of people are not going to be able to use their hips, as you point out get that hip figure 8 action, with weight on their heel. She is a freak and has learned to throw different things differently.

heavy on the heel or even pushing off the heel has been my biggest and hardest flaw to remedy and keep away. I'm probably overly sensitive to it. BUT i have a lot of footage of me throwing poorly because I give up and video "why did I lose so much distance recently?" Biggest issue, or at least one of my issues will always be heavy on the heel if not pushing off the heel. I am decently athletic with good balance, but I have found pushing off my heel locks my hips in place and they are working against me rather than helping. I have gone through stretches where I kinda make up for it, but its always a negative for me.
 
OMG, I haven't been very active here for a while, this new format is kinda funky to get used to with replies and quotes.
I think you've answered a bit and REALLY appreciate the video with Taylor. Simply 99% of people are not going to be able to use their hips, as you point out get that hip figure 8 action, with weight on their heel. She is a freak and has learned to throw different things differently.

heavy on the heel or even pushing off the heel has been my biggest and hardest flaw to remedy and keep away. I'm probably overly sensitive to it. BUT i have a lot of footage of me throwing poorly because I give up and video "why did I lose so much distance recently?" Biggest issue, or at least one of my issues will always be heavy on the heel if not pushing off the heel. I am decently athletic with good balance, but I have found pushing off my heel locks my hips in place and they are working against me rather than helping. I have gone through stretches where I kinda make up for it, but its always a negative for me.
A while ago SocraDeez alerted me to the puzzle of Paul Oman's move and had me think through why it works despite a clear move off the rear heel:



If you watch his move, pay attention to what his whole move does and does not have in common with someone like Eagle moving off the rear foot. Maybe you'll notice differences, maybe you won't. Something became much more clear to me after the following little motion experiments.

[COLOR=var(--text)]Let's play a couple fun little games (assuming RHBH and you are holding a beer or beverage of choice for confidence and balance):[/COLOR]

1. Walk normally forward. Once you're not thinking about it, start to pay attention to how your body naturally sways a little, how the lower spine moves, how the pelvis swivels as you walk. That's the compact Figure 8 you gained from childhood and you'd want some version of it in the backhand.
2. Walk normally forward, but force your walk to only come off the left heel.
3. Now walk but try to make both feet come off the heel.

What did you learn? I reckon you will find that in (2), you will figure out how to do something like a slightly gimpy walk, but it will work well enough and you'll probably get the hang of it pretty quickly and function much better than you would walking with a wooden peg leg. If you practice it and quicken your pace, you could probably live with it. Is it as efficient or fluid or as complete a figure 8 as a full normal walk? Probably not. But would you rather do (2) and its probably slightly less optimal Figure 8-ish pattern than (3) for the rest of your life? My guess is that you will quickly say "yes" because (3) probably works dramatically worse for you.

4. Now (are you onto the second beer? better to stop before three...) do (3) heels-only, but run. Uh oh. Now I bet you'd really rather be a (2) at worst, and that you are really starting to value running with (1). But if you're as synced and long as Oman or Taylor and as athletic, you're still going to do a lot more with the gait pattern in (2) than most mortals do with (1). A lot of the "secret sauce" is still available to you with (2). In its own context, it becomes part of that secret sauce at that moment even if another path might have been more optimal, or may become more optimal later. How would we know?

When I hear struggles like yours I like to remind you and myself: it's ok not to be perfect even if you are as much a swing addict as I am. I very recently understood that I had a gait impairment (childhood injury plus later mileage) that was subtle enough to only occasionally notice, and I only sort of knew it. I never paid it too much attention after getting initial and occasional treatments. Once I suddenly understood it ("aha!"), I felt bad because (after two years) it explained quite a bit about why I struggled with certain parts of the backhand and I felt like I could have saved Sidewinder and me time banging both of our heads against walls. On the other hand, I'm not even sure I could have detected and self-diagnosed it as thoroughly without the weird journey I have taken here with all the drills and anatomy and balance concepts you uniquely encounter on DGCR. All it means is that I'll have a gimped drive leg side, and the movement options are restricted for me. But I can find something that sorta does the job.

What cases like yours or mine or Oman's or Taylor's say to me is that everyone is going to struggle with something. Some things are going to be harder to change, or even impossible under certain constraints. And sometimes if you tap the window the wrong way, the whole thing cracks and there really may be some stones best left unturned.

Otherwise it just means you work on what you can if you want to (I can't seem to stop! I just hope I am getting wiser...), and it's important not to lose sight of the fun you have and friends you make along the way.

Disc golf is awesome.
 
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If you watch his move, pay attention to what his whole move does and does not have in common with someone like Eagle moving off the rear foot. Maybe you'll notice differences, maybe you won't. Something became much more clear to me after the following.
...
Disc golf is awesome.
Right away the biggest take away is where I see my difference in all the people we watch. What Shustrick still manages, what Taylor is doing what all of people we watch to model off of is that knee drop. Now I don't think i'm pushing off over the top, but dammit I am not getting into that position where the knee comes in to drive the hips properly, quickly and less muscle-y.

Its all still fun, I love the process but I see where i'm leaking power and consistency and its the lack of consistency that eats at me.
 
Right away the biggest take away is where I see my difference in all the people we watch. What Shustrick still manages, what Taylor is doing what all of people we watch to model off of is that knee drop. Now I don't think i'm pushing off over the top, but dammit I am not getting into that position where the knee comes in to drive the hips properly, quickly and less muscle-y.

Its all still fun, I love the process but I see where i'm leaking power and consistency and its the lack of consistency that eats at me.
Honestly one of the most annoying parts of the whole move is just getting the legs to move naturally sideways-ish athletically the way they work in any move you learned in childhood. I hear ya brotha. Avoiding pushing over the top is a significant win for many people. Maybe focus more on the drive being what helps move the overall CoM and body rather than the hips specifically (hips are passengers and certainly a crucial vehicle for force transmission in the overall motion, but you can overdo it - focusing on what happens when walking might help you there too). That was a major change in my understanding.
 
heavy on the heel or even pushing off the heel has been my biggest and hardest flaw to remedy and keep away.
Cole Redalen's move started out very heel-loaded with the rear hip rotating back away somewhat open rather than closed and still is to an extent. Very visible when he powered up for distance in 2022, around 7:05 here:

 
That's kinda crazy looking... speed and youth and ape index though. It doesn't look like his hips do any work at all. A few of the other guys right after him look to get a little heavy on the heel as well but still manage to drive that knee/rear hip around. Notably Tuomas Hyytiainen.
 
Simon has rear heel on ground last while my heel leaves first = still same move:
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