good distance, strange looking x-step, trying to improve

[Jovomagic]

I really wanted to post in the form analysis section a lot of times over the past year but never found the time. I'm glad I finally made it…

After sidewinder's feedback on my post last year,(click here) I worked on keeping my elbow forward. I found out that, to lead with my elbow, it helps me to keep my arm straight at the "reachback". Otherwise the angle between my upper arm and my upper body at the shoulder kept collapsing and I couldn't get a good power pocket...or kept hitting my chest with the disc.

So the last big jump in consistent distance happened after I read "One-Piece Takeaway - Everything Moves Back Together". Keeping the arm straight at the "reachback" (or should I call it backswing now) helped me a lot, but on the other side it felt really awkward. I felt like converting to a Eric Oakley like throwing style. I never filmed it but it felt like our movements matched each other one-on-one. ...and even though Eric is a great player, it just didn't really click for me. It just didn't feel like my movement. Like I said before, it just felt really awkward.

At that time I started experimenting to come back from this straight arm motion to a reachback and tried to get this consistent feeling in, with the wider angle at the shoulder, but it never really happened. So with some time to train, I just made the swing back movement more like I saw it now in a lot of sidewinders videos. Not by swinging the extended arm back in front of me, but let it fall down and swing back that way.

Here are three vids to clarify the arm motion.

1. ...the extended arm in front of me:


2. ...as I tried to come back to an reachback but the issue of collapsing shoulder angle:


3. ...the way I swing back now:


About a week ago I thought of finally posting some form vids here and filmed the throws in my lunch break. Fortunately I had my longest throw on level ground that day, it went over 500ft! The other driver throws went between 400 and 450ft, sideward spread was not over 50ft too, so I felt really good that day...until I watched the throws.

...well, unfortunately I found my x-step on the video so unpleasant that I wanted to try to adjust it first and then discuss it with you.

Here's the recording of my first 500ft+ throw with my 175g Neutron Octane, the other throws looked similar, so I post only this one:




Compared to what I learned here in many threads I turn my hips back way to early. It seems that it doesn't hurt distance this much, so I assume I'm doing some things right, but if there's the chance to improve further I will do it no matter what.

So I came back this week and tried to stay more sideways in my x-step and more on the balls of my feet. Resulted in a little hop, but that's not so bad. What really annoyed me was that it gave me a much faster run-up. I really like to start slow in the x-step and try to explode at the end. Therefore I also have a slower backswing and can control the start of the throw and the release angle of the disc better. So the problem I had with the (at least in feeling) much faster x-step was no angle control, nose-up throws and my discs landing all over the place. So I went to the discs that felt halfway good in throwing, measured them with U-Disc and got you the recordings of that throws. Even these had a sideward spread of over 140ft…


01 - Cosmic Neutron Pilot 177g - 265ft

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02 - Big Z Buzzz 178g - 274ft (unfortunately early tree touch)

Spoiler

03 - Prism Pyro 180g - 292ft

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04 - Z Mantis -396ft

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05 - Titanium Undertaker 168g - 393ft

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06 - Proton Relativity 174g - 346ft (nice turnover shot, but way too less height)

Spoiler

07 - Neutron Octane 175g - 416ft

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08 - ESP Force 174g - 420ft

Spoiler

The early hip-turn in my first vid is probably not the only thing I could do better there, so please don't hold back. Another question is, what could I do to slow down in the sideway motion, without planting on the whole foot instead of the ball of the foot. Or do I just have to strengthen my feet to slow this motion down...or is the adjustment I made there not the one I needed in the first place, what are your thoughts?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Lumberjack504]

I agree, the pendulum backswing (it should never ever be called a reachback IMHO) is where it's at. In your first vids it looks like you're trying to force your body into certain positions, then when you pendulum, it seems more natural/instinctive to get the disc where it needs to be.

In your throw, I do notice that you're kind of running up backwards, and turning back too early. You also take a huge stride into the plant and push off your rear heel, extending the rear leg. The elbow does seem to get forward though, which is most likely contributing to your distance. 500 is awesome though, congrats!

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, starting with the right foot already turned back makes it much harder to keep your balance/leverage forward. Note how far back behind your rear foot you land vs Markus landing forward of his rear foot, so he is already leveraged forward and doesn't have to drag his body/knee forward over it, he hops up over the rear leg and can turn back freely and leveraged going into the plant.

Coming into the plant you can see how Markus's rear knee is already leveraged forward while your rear knee is still behind your ankle and note how Markus lands in a narrower stance and more upright balanced, while your front leg is reaching way out ahead to counter balance your torso leaning so far back away from target.

Video from behind the tee also helps give another 2D perspective of your 3D balance.

 

[Jovomagic]

Thank you for the fast reply! I haven't had much time to practice. I did some short drills the past days, but didn't manage to record anything today due to strong gusts of wind. But I hope to post some progress this week.

 

[Jovomagic]

I did a few throws today, I struggled to get good camera-angles, I couldn't attach my phone in a proper way.

The order of the videos matches the order of the throws, even if there were still some in between. But uploading all of them individually on youtube takes too much time. Videos behind the Spoiler.

Is slow motion so helpful at all? Otherwise I could just make a long video with several throws. Would be a bit faster to realize.

Spoiler

I think it got a little better. Weight is more in front and coming into the plant I am more upright balanced than before but still a bit work to do.
As you see in the pictures I think I also have to lead more with my hips and stay upright with my torso...instead of just falling over like it seemes in the pics...:doh:

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, you need to keep your head/shoulders more forward addressed to target going into x-step with butt leading, you start turning head/shoulders back too early and get off balance/tip/fall over backward to target and plant into really wide stance to catch yourself being off balance.

Your rear arm is also way behind your body and not helping anything.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523

Just post normal speed vids, can use <> to go frame by frame in youtube.

 

[UhhNegative]

You're not getting anything out of your rear leg either. In the one video I watched you are pushing off the heel instead of instep/toes and late getting weight off the rear leg. Probably will fix itself when you get more balanced on the front leg as you won't need the rear foot to balance as much.

 

[Jovomagic]

Ok, on the rear arm I was working at the moment anyway. That's what has given me the most distance gain lately. But it is not yet so well established that it happens by itself. So it just stops if I have to concentrate too much on the lower body like in the last videos.

I think in my first post, you can guess in the last video(Force), that the rear arm is working. To be honest, I am surprised that you can't see it that much, I feel that I bring the left shoulder forward with force . But I assume, this is certainly due to the fact that I concentrate more on the shoulder than on the arm itself. If I use the arm I have a greater delay than if I bring the shoulder directly into counter movement. At least that's what worked best for me. I tried different ways, e.g. the swimming movement like Mcbeth or the hard pump like drew gibson, but it all felt unnatural and as if I was just delaying the movement. Because in the end I don't want to swing the arm forward but start the counter movement of the upper body.

If I can get it to work the way it suits me best, I have my left forearm in front of my chest and the swim-move is only initiated through the shoulder. If I do a few dry swings in a standstill, I can feel the pure power generated by this movement. Usually I do a few before I throw while holding the disc very tight, but every now and then it rips the disc out of my hand. But to integrate this into the overall process including the x-step is a completely different challenge.

Therefore I think I will go back to a one-step-throw. Concentrating on a balanced weight transfer and a good timing with the swim move.

Had not much time today also it was a little rainy. I tried it out with a few putters, felt good and got good distance up to 280ft into an unsteady headwind. So I think this is the path I need to take. I will record some new videos when the weather gets better here...no fun for now.

 

[Jovomagic]

Due to two weeks of illness and steady rain out here, it wasn't possible for me to make a new video. Had only a little time to do a few small drills inside. Today I had a short moment to film a few throws. Couldn't really analyze it for myself by now, maybe friday. But I thought I post it for now, so if someone here has the time to look at it until then and give some tips, I would really appreciate it.

Having a hard time remembering to keep my eyes on the target and not move my head back too soon. Remembered it at the 4th throw I think...but I think it's a little better than last time...at least no falling over.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your practice swing action(and throwing) is spinning your feet/hips out without shifting forward. You have to shift to one leg or the other leg before you can turn on it. Trying to turn with both feet on the ground is just twisting/spinning in place and not good for the body or the throwing.

Note how your front heel turns clockwise going into the plant and spins further away from the target and your rear heel then also spins out further away from target. You want your heels to be moving targetward to move your weight targetward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

I don't recommend leaning back as far as Will in the backswing, but pay attention to how his front foot turns counter clockwise and his heel plants forward. The heel doesn't have to plant ahead of the toes, but needs to be moving forward into the plant.

 

[Jovomagic]

This!

Before this whole virus thing I tried this move at home in some kind of pendulum walking drill and I got out one more time to try implementing this in my X-Step, with a really slow runup and to test out my newly acquired worn in Electron Pilots. I had a throw with one of them to 325ft(UDisc-Distance). My farthest putter throw of all time.:thmbup:

In the lockdown time I went out for a few throws every now and then, also to test new discs, but didn't really train. When I went back to work in the office instead of from home, I had more opportunities to use my breaks for some training...and was disappointed to say the least. Got nice throws with putters and mids, but it was a throwback to the time when the drivers did not fly much further than the mids. I had no clue what happened, all momentum gone?...tried to blame the virus.

Yesterday this weightshift drill came back to mind and so I tried it out today. Only standstill throws just like shown in the gifs. Sure, the accuracy was not that high yet, but I got some decent throws and ripped my Relativity to 400ft one time...from a standstill...that was a nice feeling and I'm hooked again to work on my form.

So I see me posting some new videos in the near future, when I try to combine this with the x-step.

Thanks sidewinder for your enlightening feedback.

 

[Jovomagic]

Sorry couldn't post a vid today, I forgot the mount for my smartphone. But have to post nonetheless. Had overall long throws today and a few outstanding ones.

I threw my VIP Harp to 315ft.
I threw my beat in S-Line Gremlin to 360ft and I have to say, I love my Buzzes!:thmbup:
I threw my Proton Relativity to 472ft and 492ft.

All with this standstill or kind of onestep throw, that's so impressive. I'm not even in good shape, I don't really workout and I don't really do anything other than throwing in the field at the moment. I know that sounds so like self-adulation but I'm just so happy right now. I couldn't think of getting so far with just this movement, even without an X-Step. I have to pull out the other drivers again. I was mainly throwing mids and putters the last weeks and only a few drivers.

The problem now is to integrate this in an X-Step and get the timing right. But I think before that I'm really grinding this onestep throw as long as it needs to get the timing as good as I can get it and to get the consistency up to a higher level. Had to fight with some grip issues leading to early or late releases.

I hope I don't forget the mount tomorrow, so I can film a few throws.

 

[Jovomagic]

Made some vids today, was a little rainy and due to maintanance work I couldn't throw at my usual place. The discs were mostly dry despite the rain, but I had some issues due to the change of place. As you can see there is a federal highway on the right side and really thick bushes on the left, I know it was more of a mental problem but I really didn't want to end up in the bushes or on the highway. That's why I was a little inhibited. Resulting in some issues in release angles, especially with the drivers which I haven't thrown for a while.

Putter throws sideview:
Harp/310|Suspect/310|Stabilizer/290|NDBuzzz/335

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Mid throws view from behind:
BigZBuzzz/347|PMcBBuzzz/295|PPBuzzz/318|Gatekeeper/345|Gremlin/347|Pyro/238

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Fairway drivers sideview:
FD|Mantis|Undertaker|Longbowman
all between 300ft and 340ft had bad release angles

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Distance drivers view from behind:
fissionTesla/370|neutronTesla/340|Force/413|greenForce/416|Nuke/296|Defender/384|Octane/305|Relativity/413

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As I wrote above, throwing didn't feel as good as yesterday. I hope I can get a few hints to get my form better or more consistent. In a few throws I think I could get the disc closer to the chest, to have a better power pocket. Compared to the gifs I think I'm going a little too low on my knees. Don't know if this is a bad thing...

 

[UhhNegative]

So your setup is fundamentally wrong and is causing you to round the shot a lot. You are basically aiming the release a solid 30-45 degrees too far right of the direction your body is setup to throw. You'll also notice the rounding that occurs because of that.

When you setup to aim the shot, the front foot should be slightly open towards the target line. By having your front foot so closed to the target line, your ability to turn your hips back is extremely limited and they end up rotating open too early. Your also not getting the weight off the rear foot soon enough and really not even getting your weight far forward enough.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah setup open and turn back closed dynamically during the backswing as you stride forward. You turn back and shift back all the way back together and then start opening up when you start striding forward. Need to start striding forward while you are turning back, or turning back while you are striding forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk&t=6m57s

Also need to be more passive with your front leg/dingle leg in the stride. Your front leg is reaching/kicking/stepping out ahead of your rear leg drive. The rear leg drive should be moving the stride leg and putting it down, like walking down the steps.

 

[Jovomagic]

So your setup is fundamentally wrong...

Oh boy, that's not the first thing you wanna read sitting on the couch thinking about your latest breakthrough and hoping you did at least get a few things right. [emoji28]

But I watched it again and recognized that I am starting with the weight on my front foot. I really don't know when that did happen. That's not the way I started to do this. I did this mentioned drill where I was shifting the weight to the front while swinging back. I have no idea at what point I switched to this movement. Aaahrrrg...

Starting over tomorrow...

Sometimes I think a direct feedback when trying new things or doing some of the drills would be a so much faster way to get better. Someone who says stop if you are falling back into old habits or adding something unnecessary to the mix.

Now reading through your posts again watching the vids, trying to understand everything.

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[UhhNegative]

Oh boy, that's not the first thing you wanna read sitting on the couch thinking about your latest breakthrough and hoping you did at least get a few things right. [emoji28]

But I watched it again and recognized that I am starting with the weight on my front foot. I really don't know when that did happen. That's not the way I started to do this. I did this mentioned drill where I was shifting the weight to the front while swinging back. I have no idea at what point I switched to this movement. Aaahrrrg...

Starting over tomorrow...

Sometimes I think a direct feedback when trying new things or doing some of the drills would be a so much faster way to get better. Someone who says stop if you are falling back into old habits or adding something unnecessary to the mix.

Now reading through your posts again watching the vids, trying to understand everything.

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Disc golf form seems impossible to understand.... until you do. Sometimes you watch a throw thousands of times and its only after realizing something that you see it from an entirely new perspective and then it unlocks something new for you.

I still think one of the best drills I've ever done and seen other people succeed with is the windmill drill. It's basically like combining the "feeling the weight of the swing" drills like sidewinder's hammer drills and battering ram drills with actually holding a real disc and throwing it. Sometimes I think its hard to make the transition from waving around a hammer (and even launching it) to throwing a disc. The windmill drill allows you to "feel the weight of the swing" as you windmill but then immediately go into actually throwing it so I think its easier to make the connection.

 

[Jovomagic]

Couldn't make a new video but have a question instead. Since I'm doing this I have the feeling that all my discs have more stability. Approximately a year ago, as I was at the point where I threw my first 400ft-420ft throws I had a lot of turnovers. Even with my overstable drivers(Defender/Force/Dimension) I had some turnover shots that never came back. The first thought I had was: how can I throw even further when all my discs seem to turn over this fast? Now I have some 460-500ft throws with my Relativity. Even thrown nearly flat I have some smooth S curves and the disc always comes back. Is this some kind of Indication that I am on the right track?

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