GPS Tracking

[Mocheez]

The rules about not being able to make post-production modifications to a disc were put in place specifically because players were modifying their discs (chiefly adding weights to alter the flight). There were far fewer discs to choose from back then, so modifying existing discs sort of made sense. With the plethora of manufacturers and models available on the market now, and more sure to come, why would there be a need for personal modifications to be allowed anyway? If one disc doesn't do the job, try another.

The personal modification would be to add GPS, LED, etc. You just made the point that weight modification shouldn't be necessary anymore due to the plethora of manufacturers and models, so I don't see the harm.

I personally prefer weights 7-10 grams lighter than the max for drivers, mids, and putters. Discs that are beyond the max are a disadvantage to me personally.

 

[JC17393]

The personal modification would be to add GPS, LED, etc. You just made the point that weight modification shouldn't be necessary anymore due to the plethora of manufacturers and models, so I don't see the harm.

I personally prefer weights 7-10 grams lighter than the max for drivers, mids, and putters. Discs that are beyond the max are a disadvantage to me personally.

My point is that your idea of molding pockets for GPS or LED opens the door for abuse with weights. Yes, plethora of models and manufacturers, but they're producing discs to legal standards. Being able to add weights would allow players to get discs above max weight. While it may not be an advantage to you personally, it could be an advantage to others. Which is why I don't see the PDGA allowing anything that would enable players to make "legal" post-production mods to discs.

 

[Seatown]

Its only a matter of time. We already have apps that can measure distance, track scores, navigate courses, etc..... Merging tech with our hobbies, its bound to happen.

 

[Mocheez]

I understand your point. My opinion is that the benefits far outweigh the risks. The number of people that are both willing to cheat and would benefit from adding weight would be very small compared to the number of people that could benefit from adding GPS / LEDs to a disc.

 

[JC17393]

I understand your point. My opinion is that the benefits far outweigh the risks. The number of people that are both willing to cheat and would benefit from adding weight would be very small compared to the number of people that could benefit from adding GPS / LEDs to a disc.

Which is why the PDGA has already altered the manufacturing specs allowing disc makers to add GPS and LEDs to discs at the factory level.

Benefits of GPS/LEDs for those that need it, no slippery slope allowances for the potential cheaters.

 

[Seatown]

Once a standardized GPS chip/whatever hits the market, with a uniform weight/size/etc, disc mfg's will be much more inclined to adjust their product specs to allow for 'legal' use. That, or just not allow them to be used at sanctioned PDGA events...

Either way, it will eventually hit the recreational market, and likely explode from there

 

[knettles]

All I really want is a single driver. MVP Volt would be great, but I'd settle for an Innova Beast or something similar with a GPS chip. Basically, a disc for those holes that are long, wide open, and with tall grass off the sides (hole 15 Idlewild anyone?). It probably wouldn't be a disc I'd keep in my bag all the time, but every once in a while would come in handy.

 

[Darth Anovin]

I already have a pretty good device to find my discs. In fact, I have two of them. They are called "eyes."

 

[garublador]

Once a standardized GPS chip/whatever hits the market, with a uniform weight/size/etc, disc mfg's will be much more inclined to adjust their product specs to allow for 'legal' use. That, or just not allow them to be used at sanctioned PDGA events...

Either way, it will eventually hit the recreational market, and likely explode from there

My guess is it will take some other field needing something very similar for it to be viable for disc golf. In other words there will be some other use, like finding pets or something, that's much more popular than disc golf before we have something small enough and low enough power to work for disc golf. The companies that make highly integrated chips like that need millions and millions of orders before they make something with a low enough price.

One example is all of the accelerometers and motion sensors we have in our phones. Some governments started requiring traction control in automobiles and MEMS chips were the obvious choice to implement that. Now that the MEMS chip manufacturers were able to make millions of them they became cheap enough for other consumer electronics. The system they come up with has to be cheaper than just managing backups.

The way the rules are written, they'd probably have to make some method of turning the chip on and off that doesn't involve touching it to preserve battery (e.g. NFC or some series of taps). Otherwise the GPS chip would run out of battery about the same time your disc got beat in perfect and difficult to replace. Of course the current rules could just be a place holder until a real solution is presented.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

GPS is seems to be some reasonable high tech stuff, and as Garu says, it's a matter of generating enough volume to drive costs down to the point were it'd be reasonable.

The technology they use in greeting cards with recorded sound seems like it already would suit our needs, in terms of size, weight and price. Those devices seem to be similarly sized to flat LED lights many of us tape on for glow rounds. Keep a few in your bag, and tape one to the disc of your choice as the need arises. Activate the switch before you throw, turn it off when you get to your lie... just like the LED's.

Not suitable for tourney play, but I'd love to have a few of these on my drivers, especially on blind holes, or fairways lined with thick brushy crap or amber waves of grain.

I would think we could do this now... I wonder where you can buy that stuff and what type of quantities you have to get them in?

 

[tlatoani]

I already have a pretty good device to find my discs. In fact, I have two of them. They are called "eyes."

Good for you. Not all people have good eyes. :thmbdown:

 

[jZip]

There are a couple of topics going on here it seems. The first is whether GPS is a viable technology for locating a disc in regards to performance, weight and cost. The second being whether adding such technology would be allowable under PDGA rules.

I can address the first and won't touch the second.

The first thing that needs to be understood, is that GPS - or GNSS as it is now known since we use more than just the one constellation - on its own is a passive technology. It is an antenna and receiver that is capable of calculating its position based upon timing signals from satellites. That fix is reliant on the ability to receive those signals, which are easily obstructed. A wooded course is fun for us, but murder on GPS. Once the device achieves a fix it knows where it is (somewhat), and if you are holding the device you know where you are. However, if you want to locate the device remotely it needs to broadcast that location back to you. That requires some form of broadcast radio (or cellular modem) and a means to receive that signal. That is where this gets much more difficult. Bluetooth is really not a viable solution as it only has a 10m range. UHF is too big, and heavy. Cellular requires a cell modem....and a cellular plan.

Also, autonomous (uncorrected) GPS is notoriously inaccurate. All GPS requires some form of differential correction to achieve any degree of reliable accuracy. The most common real-time correction comes from the WAAS satellites, which are owned by the FAA. They are capable of a 1m correction (assuming the GPS receiver itself supports that degree of accuracy), however they are difficult to use in real world situations. Up here in the NE the WAAS satellite lies close to the horizon in the south western sky. That wouldn't matter if you were up in a plane, like they are intended for, but down on the ground, with obstructed canopy, good luck. There are other means of real-time correction (Coast Guard Beacon and local reference station networks) but those require some means of receiving that correction, i.e. an external radio receiver or cellular connection.

So, in short....
GPS (GNSS) is passive technology. Can locate itself to a high degree of accuracy - with real time corrections. I work with equipment capable of 10 cm - 1 cm of accuracy.

The accuracy is reliant on the quality of the receiver, the quality of the GPS fix, and the ability to access a real time correction.

In order for you to locate a GPS receiver it needs to broadcast its location. This requires some means of communication.

and don't overlook the need to power both the GPS and the broadcast radio. a not insignificant component of this whole thing.

I have worked in the professional GPS industry for over a decade, and IMHO, I don't see GPS as being even remotely feasible for this application.

If anyone has any questions or would like me to expand on anything, or for that matter, dispute anything I have said, I welcome it.

Thx all, and happy hucking.

 

[garublador]

Bluetooth is really not a viable solution as it only has a 10m range.

I was thinking the same thing recently, too. The GPS probably won't get you any closer than the Bluetooth range, so it won't really do any good. WiFi might work better since the range is so much longer. You don't need a very strong connection to send the GPS coordinates. Using cell towers is probably the best. If the GPS and cell tower data is sent to your phone, or some service, you could increase the accuracy of the GPS a bit by augmenting it with the cell tower data. Presumably by the time this could be implemented adding a low bandwidth device to a data plan would be pretty inexpensive or even free.

Another option might be to use WiFi and two smart phones to triangulate the position of a disc. As long as all three are in range of one another you could potentially use the signal strength of the three connections to figure out where the disc is in relation to the two phones. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the accuracy would be terrible, though.

Either way I agree that the technology just isn't there to implement any of this now. There would have to be improvements in cost, power consumption and accuracy before it's even remotely viable.

 

[jZip]

I have a team working on a prototype GPS tracker right now. We tried the RFID route and found it to be too heavy and the range was short. The GPS tracker is currently 8 grams in weight Go to Kickstarter.com W have tested it extensively and have not lost a disc yet. Hope to have it in production at a lower weight very soon.

I searched kickstarter and could not find your project. I'd like to hear more about this. GPS is my field so I'd be very interested in what you guys have come up with. Also, feel free to contact me if you'd like any input.

Thx.

 

[jZip]

I was thinking the same thing recently, too. The GPS probably won't get you any closer than the Bluetooth range, so it won't really do any good. WiFi might work better since the range is so much longer. You don't need a very strong connection to send the GPS coordinates. Using cell towers is probably the best. If the GPS and cell tower data is sent to your phone, or some service, you could increase the accuracy of the GPS a bit by augmenting it with the cell tower data. Presumably by the time this could be implemented adding a low bandwidth device to a data plan would be pretty inexpensive or even free.

Thanks, I neglected to mention WiFi...and frankly that might be the most viable option. If the device were to broadcast a WiFi signal then you could grab onto that device with your smartphone once you are in range and then receive its information. Still would require power at the broadcast end.

Alternatively, yes, you could use cellular connection but who wants to carry an additional device on their plan just for a disc?

In response to your speculation that a low bandwidth device such as this might in time get a special low cost plan, I guess that's possible as the industry continues evolving, but I wouldn't count on it.

Interesting topic though. Would love to hear more thoughts on it.

 

[Seatown]

Screw it, Im using these

 

[BogeyNoMore]

^lulz

 

[jZip]

^^ heheh. Nice.

 

[grodney]

If you're going to use bluetooth to broadcast your GPS position, you might as well just use the bluetooth signal itself to find the disc, right?

These and similar have been linked here before:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sticknfind-bluetooth-powered-ultra-small-location-stickers
https://www.sticknfind.com/

4.5 grams each. $20 each in bulk.

 

[jZip]

No there's an interesting solution. I haven't worked with bluetooth 4.0 yet, but the combination of 3x the previous range (30m from 10m) and the low power consumption would seem to be a huge advancement and make this a more viable solution. Only showing distance and not direction however seems like a drawback, but i guess once you are in range you can determine direction based on change in distance. Would love to give this a test.