Harder Courses for worlds?

[denny ritner]

I think a wise person once said if the baskets were smaller (comparable to how hard putting is in golf) you would have a lot less people shooting shooting 10-15 down all the time and there would be less scoring separation.

Smaller targets would lead to less agressive putting, less score separation, and a more boring game.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Ok so back to my original point, these guys are freaking GOOD. Par (66) at Moraine from the Gold tees is usually rated very high. 985-1000 depending on the props. McBeth shot a effing 51 (-15) course record last year at worlds. What the hell can you do about that. Make it so tough that par is 1100 rated??

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Anyone who has played this hole knows that this is a tremendous 3.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If putting in some way (not a smaller basket) were made tougher by 1/2 a throw per hole so it's similar to ball golf metrics, then you would see over/under scores more like ball golf and TDs would not need to use gimmicks like oppressive OB to challenge players.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Let's just be happy that at least there is some competition when scores are posted that low and not just one person running away with it.

Can't pro disc golf be dominate. Why does it have to be like ball golf.

 

[Moose33]

If putting in some way (not a smaller basket) were made tougher by 1/2 a throw per hole so it's similar to ball golf metrics, then you would see over/under scores more like ball golf and TDs would not need to use gimmicks like oppressive OB to challenge players.

Only approve large diameter putters and you probably accomplish this with no changes to anything else needed. Just change to 24cm putters and it will probably achieve that end.

 

[Mulligan]

Anyone who has played this hole knows that this is a tremendous 3.

I just played this course for the first time last weekend and it melted my brain.
I think I may have actually parred that one, but that course kicked my butt.

 

[SD86]

Ok so back to my original point, these guys are freaking GOOD. Par (66) at Moraine from the Gold tees is usually rated very high. 985-1000 depending on the props. McBeth shot a effing 51 (-15) course record last year at worlds. What the hell can you do about that. Make it so tough that par is 1100 rated??

Not a bad idea. Seriously, my idea of a solution is twofold:

1) play on wooded courses with some doglegs, courses that are fair but tough for the top players. Black (or gold) tees for these guys, while everyone else plays on the blue and reds, stuff like that. Look at DeLaveaga as an example. The IDGC in Appling, GA is an example; McBeth lost a tournament there last year. The woods are a great equalizer. So make SOME of the courses for the Worlds wooded/technical courses.

2) Yes, make it where par is a 1050+ round. Even open or semi-open courses can be made tougher (fair but tough). I'm not saying to handicap the players or their equipment or anything like that.

Also: I have no problem with the pros scoring -6 during a round, even up to -9 or so. But -16 on an 18-hole course is a problem and is not a true test of these guys' talents. Yes, they're great, they're going to smoke most existing courses that were made for us casual amateurs. But IMHO it does not have to be this way, and it's something they need to look at going forward.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

McBeth ALSO shot a course record 51 (-15) at Deer Lakes during Worlds. Par from the Blues (long tees) usually rates around 975 for pros. These guys are GOOD. You can't make courses so hard that normal golfers won't want to play. It's not that popular yet.

 

[Pbmercil]

Also: I have no problem with the pros scoring -6 during a round, even up to -9 or so. But -16 on an 18-hole course is a problem and is not a true test of these guys' talents. Yes, they're great, they're going to smoke most existing courses that were made for us casual amateurs. But IMHO it does not have to be this way, and it's something they need to look at going forward.

Whats the difference between Paul being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at 16 down after 1 round and being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at -6? There isn't one. You are basically just saying that you don't like the number, which is arbitrary. The test of their talent isn't what they shoot relative to par its what they shoot relative to each other.

 

[Pbmercil]

McBeth ALSO shot a course record 51 (-15) at Deer Lakes during Worlds. Par from the Blues (long tees) usually rates around 975 for pros. These guys are GOOD. You can't make courses so hard that normal golfers won't want to play. It's not that popular yet.

And then you have the DeLa situation: a course that in theory and by the numbers plays about the right difficulty for the best players in the world. The only problem is that to make the course that hard it is way *TOO* hard and a total luckfest.

 

[SD86]

You can't make courses so hard that normal golfers won't want to play. It's not that popular yet.

Well, first of all, I don't want a situation like where the USGA screws up the U.S. Open (ball) Golf tournament as badly as they've done a few times.

I also am not trying to make courses impossibly tough for casual players. I fully agree that taking the family of four with pre-teen children to Morane and playing from the pro tees is not in the best interest of disc golf. But I'm also not suggesting that.

Here's another example: some years ago, golf ball golf courses being used by the PGA Tour were yielding scores of -22, and that garnered some serious talk. Courses were lengthened, some redesigned, some dropped from the schedule. Many courses had black tees or the pros, and everyone else played from the blues. And some courses like Bethpage Black just have a sign saying "this course is for expert players and is not recommended for casual golfers" and such.

Bottom line... new courses can be created to test these pros. Some current courses can be made tougher with new teeboxes farther back, plant some trees in the right places, and so on. And some courses simply should not be used for the MPO Worlds again.

I think this can be done with some thought and planning. No, I don't want to destroy the fun for the casual golfer... but likewise, it doesn't look good to have -16 in 18 holes, and -90 (give or take) for a tournament, either. JMHO, of course.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Whats the difference between Paul being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at 16 down after 1 round and being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at -6? There isn't one. You are basically just saying that you don't like the number, which is arbitrary. The test of their talent isn't what they shoot relative to par its what they shoot relative to each other.

BINGO!!! Somebody gets it.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Oh, and in case you didn't know, these guys are fu¢king good.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Agreed. The numbers here are not the problem. The definition of "par" is a score than an EXPERT player would reasonably be expected to achieve... and the corollary is that "par" is a score to be a achieved, the standard to be met.. not blasted through with no resistance offered.

There have been similar issues in golf ball golf... the Masters was once considered getting "too easy", so they went out and Tiger-proofed the course with some added length and stuff. Sometimes the Masters winner has a low score, sometimes par wins the thing, but the point was to make it tougher for the top pros.

Same with disc golf, here. The top men pros are so good now and throw so far that many courses today simply aren't challenging (enough) to them. Their skills need to be truly tested with fair but tough courses. The BSF is a good example of that (IMHO).

Bottom line: -15 or -16 after 18 holes means that the course is not challenging enough for these pros, IMHO.

The pars and the course currently being played is just fine for the FPOs and most good but casual/amateur players. But the course is not challenging enough for the top MPOs.

Again, changing the par number is not sufficient. It is the course itself not being a fair and true test for these MPO players... especially for the World Championships, so sorry.

McBeth ALSO shot a course record 51 (-15) at Deer Lakes during Worlds. Par from the Blues (long tees) usually rates around 975 for pros. These guys are GOOD. You can't make courses so hard that normal golfers won't want to play. It's not that popular yet.

All good points and not necessarily exclusive.
I'm more interested in scoring separation than actual scores. When 3/4 of the pro field are deucing a hole, that should be a red flag to someone.

 

[SD86]

Whats the difference between Paul being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at 16 down after 1 round and being 1 stroke ahead of Rick at -6? There isn't one. You are basically just saying that you don't like the number, which is arbitrary. The test of their talent isn't what they shoot relative to par its what they shoot relative to each other.

I understand what you're asking and saying. To clarify my point: I think I want to see these guys tested more, fairly but more strongly, especially in the World Championships. I want to see them challenged.

I don't want to see a course so hard that they suffer just to get a par; this is not the USGA and the US Open (ball) Golf tournament I'm talking about.

Yes, they're all playing the same course. But when they're destroying that course and the scores become a joke, it just causes me to wonder if things can't be made a little better.. and by that I mean a sterner test for the greatest players in the sport... which IMHO will bring out the truly best players.

 

[Pbmercil]

Well, first of all, I don't want a situation like where the USGA screws up the U.S. Open (ball) Golf tournament as badly as they've done a few times.

I also am not trying to make courses impossibly tough for casual players. I fully agree that taking the family of four with pre-teen children to Morane and playing from the pro tees is not in the best interest of disc golf. But I'm also not suggesting that.

Here's another example: some years ago, golf ball golf courses being used by the PGA Tour were yielding scores of -22, and that garnered some serious talk. Courses were lengthened, some redesigned, some dropped from the schedule. Many courses had black tees or the pros, and everyone else played from the blues. And some courses like Bethpage Black just have a sign saying "this course is for expert players and is not recommended for casual golfers" and such.

Bottom line... new courses can be created to test these pros. Some current courses can be made tougher with new teeboxes farther back, plant some trees in the right places, and so on. And some courses simply should not be used for the MPO Worlds again.

I think this can be done with some thought and planning. No, I don't want to destroy the fun for the casual golfer... but likewise, it doesn't look good to have -16 in 18 holes, and -90 (give or take) for a tournament, either. JMHO, of course.

This is all well and good. And I actually agree with basically everything you are saying. The thing is tho, is you have to have people in place to do all this work (for free) in prep for a worlds. And people aren't exactly lining up and fighting each other over the rights to host worlds on the course infrastructure they ALREADY have, let alone take on all the stuff you are suggesting.

We can't really make worlds courses *harder* until we actually have enough bids with hard courses to force the issue, which isn't happening currently.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Well, first of all, I don't want a situation like where the USGA screws up the U.S. Open (ball) Golf tournament as badly as they've done a few times.

I also am not trying to make courses impossibly tough for casual players. I fully agree that taking the family of four with pre-teen children to Morane and playing from the pro tees is not in the best interest of disc golf. But I'm also not suggesting that.

Here's another example: some years ago, golf ball golf courses being used by the PGA Tour were yielding scores of -22, and that garnered some serious talk. Courses were lengthened, some redesigned, some dropped from the schedule. Many courses had black tees or the pros, and everyone else played from the blues. And some courses like Bethpage Black just have a sign saying "this course is for expert players and is not recommended for casual golfers" and such.

Bottom line... new courses can be created to test these pros. Some current courses can be made tougher with new teeboxes farther back, plant some trees in the right places, and so on. And some courses simply should not be used for the MPO Worlds again.

I think this can be done with some thought and planning. No, I don't want to destroy the fun for the casual golfer... but likewise, it doesn't look good to have -16 in 18 holes, and -90 (give or take) for a tournament, either. JMHO, of course.

Agreed on all points (bolds are mine).

 

[DiscGolfMaster]

I think a wise person once said if the baskets were smaller (comparable to how hard putting is in golf) you would have a lot less people shooting shooting 10-15 down all the time and there would be less scoring separation.

I don't know, I think it's different than ball golf. It's easy to go for a putt in ball golf and only end up a foot or two away from the hole each time, which is a gimme. But there's no consistent way to do the same in disc golf. So although the putting is harder in ball golf, it's easier to make your second shot than it is in disc golf.

The courses need to be less open and have more shot shaping requirements and instead of relying on OB to punish players on stray shots, make a course that has punishing rough.

 

[SD86]

This is all well and good. And I actually agree with basically everything you are saying. The thing is tho, is you have to have people in place to do all this work (for free) in prep for a worlds. And people aren't exactly lining up and fighting each other over the rights to host worlds on the course infrastructure they ALREADY have, let alone take on all the stuff you are suggesting.

We can't really make worlds courses *harder* until we actually have enough bids with hard courses to force the issue, which isn't happening currently.

True that. But going forward, with the sport growing in popularity... the time is now to think about it and plan for it in the future.