How many 5-star courses...

[valkyriefb11]

I'd brought this up before, IMO opinion reviewers should be limited to the number of 5 star ratings they give, perhaps 1 per 20 or 25 reviews. I've seen too many people who've reviewed 4 courses and given 3 5-star reviews. That's just not even remotely possible to happen.

I really have to disagree with this. What would happen if I went on a roadtrip over the summer played 20 courses and among them were Flip City, Idlewild and some other courses along the way. Under your idea I would not be allowed to rate them both (Flip City & Idlewild) 5s if I wanted to. I know that rating inflation is a problem, but I dont think limiting the # of 5 star ratings a person is allowed to give will solve any problem. And Its pretty easy to know what to do with a review by a person who rated 4 courses and gave 3 - 5 star ratings, just take it with a grain of salt.

Personally I think education is the best way to help control rating inflation. Once people are better aware of the rating system on this website they will be able to better rate courses they play, unless of course they are blatantly blinded by HBB in which case their review will reflect it. Also the more courses a person plays the better idea they will have on what to rate them.

 

[garublador]

I'd brought this up before, IMO opinion reviewers should be limited to the number of 5 star ratings they give, perhaps 1 per 20 or 25 reviews. I've seen too many people who've reviewed 4 courses and given 3 5-star reviews. That's just not even remotely possible to happen.

I know of three courses here that I believe deserve a 5 star review. Heck, I've seen four of them on top sponsored pro's bio pages:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&..._qdr=all&q=grandview+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...r=all&q=walnut+ridge+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...as_qdr=all&q=pickard+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...4&as_qdr=all&q=ewing+site:www.innovadiscs.com

Should I not be able to give these courses the ratings top players who have played all over the world seem to think would be appropriate just because my area is a statistical anomoly?

 

[NEWBY1151]

I think the rating is a chance for someone to give his/her own opinion on each course, some people may like certain things and some may not. For example some reviews I've read count water as a pro and others as a con. Not every one is going to agree about 5 star ratings. I think it should stay the way it is. If you give a course a 5, your review should tell why and others could choose to agree or disagree.

 

[tomjulio]

Not really. It's just a name. Call the site DGCourseDirectory, it wouldn't matter. It's the content, organization, presentation, ease of use, members, and admin that make the site. Not the name.

It's obvious then you have never dealt with marketing, especially when it comes to online marketing. The name is EVERYTHING if you are trying to describe something.

 

[The Valkyrie Kid]

98 reviews. Four 5 star courses.

Milo McIver, OR
Pier Park, OR
Paw Paw, WV
Circle R-Wimberly, Texas

 

[tomjulio]

I know of three courses here that I believe deserve a 5 star review. Heck, I've seen four of them on top sponsored pro's bio pages:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&..._qdr=all&q=grandview+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...r=all&q=walnut+ridge+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...as_qdr=all&q=pickard+site:www.innovadiscs.com

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...4&as_qdr=all&q=ewing+site:www.innovadiscs.com

Should I not be able to give these courses the ratings top players who have played all over the world seem to think would be appropriate just because my area is a statistical anomoly?

I've also noticed this and seen this among PRO's online. It's amazing how many list Flip and another Mason County park(Leviathan, Beast, Beauty, Goliath) as their fave. That area is an anomaly.

http://www.discraft.com/team_themm.html

http://www.discraft.com/team_carr.html

http://www.innovadiscs.com/team/gregg.html

 

[ZMan44]

I have only offered up the magnificent 5 to 2 courses. Winthrop and Idlewild. There are a few 4.5s and 4s but after playing a lot of different courses and seeing the differences between these 2 and others, it is difficult to pull the trigger and give a course a 5. I hope Flip and the Mason County parks are great. I will find out this summer. I still think 5s should be given to a small percentage...less than 2%. 1 out of 50. But by all means, if anyone plays Idlewild and Flip on the same trip, I would never fault them for giving two 5s. As an overall average, I would say that 5s should be extremely rare.

 

[PA_Disc]

I did not have time to read another "ratings" thread, but I think that something 5% of the courses would be a fair number for "best of the best". That would make the number of best courses around 135.

 

[sidewinding]

Technically there can be only one "best"; however DGCR's use of the term "best of the best" simply means the highest level on the rating scale. This means that not only can there be more than one best, there can also be more than one best of the best.

On an ordinal scale that is used to diferentiate personal preference there is no standard of measurement of differences. There are many obvious reasons for this but the main reason is you cannot accurately measure somones opinion. Since there is no standard it is a waste of time to speculate on how many of one rating there should be.

 

[sidewinding]

The "Top Courses" section of the home page limits the literal "best" courses to ten and the course at the top of the list is the literal "Best of the Best".

 

[ERicJ]

It's obvious then you have never dealt with marketing, especially when it comes to online marketing. The name is EVERYTHING if you are trying to describe something.

So what point are you trying to make with this thread drift? You want reviews only on the site, and drop all the ratings?

 

[sidewinding]

The review and rating are the same thing. As timg put it, the rating is just the "barometer" of the more detailed written review. They are both based on opinion. We need to stop reviewing reviews and rating ratings and let them be what they are.

 

[ERicJ]

I'd brought this up before, IMO opinion reviewers should be limited to the number of 5 star ratings they give, perhaps 1 per 20 or 25 reviews. I've seen too many people who've reviewed 4 courses and given 3 5-star reviews. That's just not even remotely possible to happen.

In theory I think that's kind of a good idea, but for the reasons others have mentioned already it's not really fair. Also consider the case of a player who has played 500+ courses and knows what he's talking about... if he wants to review/rate only the ten best courses he's played and they're all 5-star courses he should be able to do so.

IF, and I'm not saying we should, we wanted to attempt to control the top end of rating inflation I think a good way is to limit the number of lifetime 5-star ratings a player can give. You'd have to get agreement on what a reasonable number of 5-star courses is, 2%? currently ~60 courses? Then it doesn't matter if the reviewer rates all 60 of those first, last, or all mixed up with lesser courses. But to be realistic that limit would need to be set so high that it probably wouldn't even come into play. Also, as was pointed out in another thread if the quality of new courses continually improves the limit might potentially have to be raised over time.

ERic

 

[ERicJ]

The review and rating are the same thing.

Completely disagree.

You could have a site with only reviews.

You could have a site with only ratings.

They are distinct opinions and don't even necessarily have to agree with each other because they are opinions. You can have a great, well written review analyzing a course, and then be way off in left field with the rating (with respect to everyone elses' opinion). You can have a spot on rating with a lousy 10-word written review.

 

[ERicJ]

Technically there can be only one "best"; however DGCR's use of the term "best of the best" simply means the highest level on the rating scale. This means that not only can there be more than one best, there can also be more than one best of the best.

On an ordinal scale that is used to diferentiate personal preference there is no standard of measurement of differences. There are many obvious reasons for this but the main reason is you cannot accurately measure somones opinion. Since there is no standard it is a waste of time to speculate on how many of one rating there should be.

Other than the last line I agree with all of this. I think it is insightful to see other peoples' opinions on what they think the number of 5-star courses are.

Personally, I try to be very conservative with my ratings. Of the 1458 movies/TV shows I've rated on IMDb I've only given out ten 10-star ratings. And while I hope to be playing disc golf for a long time to come I can see myself probably giving out about the same number of 5-star course ratings.

I went into this thread thinking that I'm reserving the top rating for the very elite courses. That's why I ran the poll, to find out other people's thoguhts. It has been interesting to see other peoples take that they see over a hundred 5-star courses out there.

ERic

 

[tomjulio]

So what point are you trying to make with this thread drift? You want reviews only on the site, and drop all the ratings?

Yeah, Eric, that's exactly it.

 

[tomjulio]

IF, and I'm not saying we should, we wanted to attempt to control the top end of rating inflation I think a good way is to limit the number of lifetime 5-star ratings a player can give.

ERic

why would you want to limit anything? Let alone 5 star ratings?

What if a player played the top five courses over the past years. Finds this site (like so many lifetime players are now doing) and only reviewing/rating their faves? I personally know of five people on this board who rarely come on here but have given their insight ONLY to their fave courses, each of which is in the top ten of this site.

Limiting anything is only making something simplistic into a mind numbing process...completely contradictory to the sport itself.

 

[sidewinding]

Since the reviews use Pros and Cons we could somewhat standardize the rating to the review by assigning points to each pro and con which I have done in the chart below.

For the cons to cancel the pros you would have to give the pros positive points and the cons negative points. The lack of a particular pro would score a zero for instance if a course uses mandatories it would get one point but if it does not use mandatories it would not lose one point. The lack of a particular con would also score a zero for instance if a course is always crowded it would lose one point but if a course is never crowded it would not gain one point. Some could go either way and deserve a point in either direction.

If you use a chart like this when you review a course you can circle one of the point values for each item then simply subtract the negatives from the positives and you get a number. If the number is zero the course would be a 2.5. If the course has all the possible pros and none of the possible cons it would be perfect and deserve a 5.0. If it has no pros and all the possible cons it would deserve a 0.0. Anything in between would be at the discretion of the reviewer because not everyone thinks the same things are as important in DG.

Course Design
Challenge Variety
Distance 0, 1
Trees 0, 1
Water 0, 1
Elevation Change 0 , 1
OB 0, 1
Mandatory Routes 0, 1
Flow
Is it easy to follow without a map? 0, 1
Does it end close to where it starts? -1, 0, 1
Do fairways cross? -1, 0
Are there long walks to the next tee? -1, 0
Are the fairways well defined and fair? -1, 0, 1
Special Qualities
Does the course have a "fun factor"? 0, 1
Are there any "epic" or memorable holes? 0, 1
Does it have scenic beauty 0, 1

Basics Equipment
Quality of Baskets -1, 0, 1
Quality of Teepads -1, 0, 1
Quality of Signs -1, 0, 1

Course Maintenance
Do they keep it mowed/trees trimmed? -1, 0
Do they keep it clean/trashcans emptied? -1, 0
Is there an excessive poison ivy, thistles, etc.? -1, 0
Do they replace/repair missing signs, baskets,etc.? -1, 0

Ammenities / Extras
Parking -1, 0, 1
Restrooms -1, 0, 1
Trashcans -1, 0, 1
Benches 0, 1
Practice basket -1, 0, 1
Are there bridges to cross creeks? -1, 0, 1
Course Map -1, 0, 1
Scorecard 0, 1
Is there a course bulletin board? 0, 1
Are there weekly mini's? 0, 1
Is it easy to lose discs? -1, 0
Is it a 9 hole course? -2, 0
Do you have to Pay to play? -1, 0
Is it First Timer Friendly? -1, 0
Is there enough shade? -1, 0, 1
Is it crowded? -1, 0

 

[tomjulio]

Since the reviews use Pros and Cons we could somewhat standardize the rating to the review by assigning points to each pro and con which I have done in the chart below.

For the cons to cancel the pros you would have to give the pros positive points and the cons negative points. The lack of a particular pro would score a zero for instance if a course uses mandatories it would get one point but if it does not use mandatories it would not lose one point. The lack of a particular con would also score a zero for instance if a course is always crowded it would lose one point but if a course is never crowded it would not gain one point. Some could go either way and deserve a point in either direction.

If you use a chart like this when you review a course you can circle one of the point values for each item then simply subtract the negatives from the positives and you get a number. If the number is zero the course would be a 2.5. If the course has all the possible pros and none of the possible cons it would be perfect and deserve a 5.0. If it has no pros and all the possible cons it would deserve a 0.0. Anything in between would be at the discretion of the reviewer because not everyone thinks the same things are as important in DG.

Course Design
Challenge Variety
Distance 0, 1
Trees 0, 1
Water 0, 1
Elevation Change 0 , 1
OB 0, 1
Mandatory Routes 0, 1
Flow
Is it easy to follow without a map? 0, 1
Does it end close to where it starts? -1, 0, 1
Do fairways cross? -1, 0
Are there long walks to the next tee? -1, 0
Are the fairways well defined and fair? -1, 0, 1
Special Qualities
Does the course have a "fun factor"? 0, 1
Are there any "epic" or memorable holes? 0, 1
Does it have scenic beauty 0, 1

Basics Equipment
Quality of Baskets -1, 0, 1
Quality of Teepads -1, 0, 1
Quality of Signs -1, 0, 1

Course Maintenance
Do they keep it mowed/trees trimmed? -1, 0
Do they keep it clean/trashcans emptied? -1, 0
Is there an excessive poison ivy, thistles, etc.? -1, 0
Do they replace/repair missing signs, baskets,etc.? -1, 0

Ammenities / Extras
Parking -1, 0, 1
Restrooms -1, 0, 1
Trashcans -1, 0, 1
Benches 0, 1
Practice basket -1, 0, 1
Are there bridges to cross creeks? -1, 0, 1
Course Map -1, 0, 1
Scorecard 0, 1
Is there a course bulletin board? 0, 1
Are there weekly mini's? 0, 1
Is it easy to lose discs? -1, 0
Is it a 9 hole course? -2, 0
Do you have to Pay to play? -1, 0
Is it First Timer Friendly? -1, 0
Is there enough shade? -1, 0, 1
Is it crowded? -1, 0

no offense Sidewinder I can see you put a lot of thought into this, but again I think that is way too much over thinking something simplistic. In the long run, as a matter of averages and ratings/reviews things will always work themselves out, even with occasional oddities.

Case in point..IMDB. Dark Knight comes out and because of the youth and their internet savoy, the movie skyrockets to #1 all time best movie. We all know this isn't the case. As time continues and more votes are cast it is slowly falling down the chart and into a more realistic spot. No doubt with a few more years it will balance out. All statistics balance out with enough ratings/reviews what have you. Hell, maybe even in a year Flip or Idlewild will drop out of the top ten with 50 or so reviews/ratings. Then again maybe not.

I ask again, why make this process difficult? Is that is what is really wanted with this site?

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

I really have to disagree with this. What would happen if I went on a roadtrip over the summer played 20 courses and among them were Flip City, Idlewild and some other courses along the way. Under your idea I would not be allowed to rate them both (Flip City & Idlewild) 5s if I wanted to. I know that rating inflation is a problem, but I dont think limiting the # of 5 star ratings a person is allowed to give will solve any problem. And Its pretty easy to know what to do with a review by a person who rated 4 courses and gave 3 - 5 star ratings, just take it with a grain of salt.

Your point gives even more credence to what I'm saying. Suppose you do go to the top 10 or 20 rated courses on this website. After playing the top courses, you will know better than anyone that not all of them deserve 5 star ratings, or even 4 star ratings. You'll have the first hand knowledge of what the "best of the best" is and what a great course is; therefore, if you rate Flip City or Idlewild, for example, as only a 3.5 or 4, your review will be much more accurate and appreciated.