Is this course doing it's job?

[txmxer]

Speaking as just one designer, I'd ask you to not be so polite. I want real feedback. Chances are, you'll hate the same things I do (but I had to leave because of other constraints). Or, if you do see something I didn't, I'll change it and take credit for the improvement.

"The baby looks just like you!"

 

[BillFleming]

I know a few of the ones who withdrew and they are not "whiners," they just didn't want to play a course that they deemed too technical.

I have nothing against players that change their mind about playing a course. But if the player "complains" to other players about the course....that's whining. Don't like a course - don't play it....but let others decide for themselves.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

There is a lot to consider. Are the gaps fair yet challenging? Fair as in not just having a wall of trees to throw through and hope to get lucky.

Then you have the statistics to look at. Are there not enough birdies on some holes or too many? I personally like to see 15-30% of a MPO field make birdie on the holes. Even 10% can be fine though if it's actually fairly designed and luck is not a major factor.

Look at those holes that had too many or too few birdies and try and move the basket if possible to help make it more difficult or remove trees/branches if needed to help make birdie possible.

This is what I have been thinking about the most after the tournament - whether the holes are fair and whether the stats back that up. I'm generally happy with the spread on most holes except 5 where all the MPO scoring spread was basically non-existant (the hole I am thinking about shortening). As to birdies, one hole really stood out and that is hole 7. Out of 54 plays by MPO, MP50 (there were no MP40 players) and MA, there were only 3 birdies, all from the MA players. There were 24 pars and 23 bogies. It averaged 3.64 throws with a MAD of 0.77. Here's a pic of the hole:

It's 350ft exactly. Everything to the left of the near, top edge of the ditch is OB. There is OB behind the basket as well. It played as the third most difficult hole on the course. It is fairly easy to avoid OB on this hole if played conservatively. All of the OB throws were to the left, with no one overthrowing and reaching the OB behind the basket. No one missed the mando. I'm okay with the dearth of birdies and several players I talked to thought this was the best hole on the course. But there's no overlooking the fact that it gave up only about 6% birdies when I did not think it would play so difficult. I do however think that the number of bogies is an encouraging sign that the hole is getting players to be aggressive and go for the birdie. The two mistakes are either trying to flex a disc that is too overstable and fades early or throwing something too understable that turns, burns and cut rolls OB.

There are two holes that are more difficult, one a par 4 that only gave up 1 birdie out of 54 plays (MPO, MP50 and MA) and played at .7 throws above par. It is probably just too difficult and may require a bit of clearing. On the other hand, it had a good spread of scores (MAD 0.71) with half of the plays scoring par and no one really bitching about the difficulty.

 

[zontar]

from the pic, it looks like an awesome hole! hope to play it someday.

 

[Steve West]

Why the mando?

 

[Dave242]

Any thoughts/input will be appreciated.

Congrats on the new course! Sounds like it was a long time coming, and took some real thought and real work to make this a reality. You definitely had some fun constraints!

What leaves me curious, is to see if my suspicions are well-founded or not: there are a relatively large number of holes that are pretty short (especially for MPO and MP50) that have a very low number of birdies. I am talking about 1 (MP50s), 3 (MP50s), 4 (both), 8! (both), 9! (both), 12 (both), 18? (both). 13 would seem to apply too (no 3's on a 423' hole). That is 8 of 18 holes - almost half the course.

What that tells me is that on a 260' hole, for instance, there are 2 throws almost 'required' to get to the circle. 260' is fun for most skill levels, but two 130' throws.....not so much. Are the intended throws forced (boring) or just plinko (random - not a good measure/reward of skill)....or something else? I have a hard time imagining that on at least several of these, players encounter NAGS situations (from John Houck's articles, not a golf shot). It is possible that some putting areas are extremely difficult which of course would add to scoring averages.

From the one picture you posted (and the streams - love them!), I would love to visit your course one day!

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Why the mando?

There is a tee box to the right at about 275'. It is a tournament/mini-oriented safety measure combined with a backstop to protect that tee box. The backstop should suffice, but for tournaments I wanted a little extra discouragement from throwing too far right.

 

[Monocacy]

On the pictured hole, how far from the basket to OB left? If someone plays safe to the right, are they risking OB by running a long putt? If so, could that explain the lack of birdies from the MPO field? Could the pros have decided to play for par and seek birdies elsewhere?

Looks like a fun hole to me, anyway. What course is this?

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Congrats on the new course! Sounds like it was a long time coming, and took some real thought and real work to make this a reality. You definitely had some fun constraints!

What leaves me curious, is to see if my suspicions are well-founded or not: there are a relatively large number of holes that are pretty short (especially for MPO and MP50) that have a very low number of birdies. I am talking about 1 (MP50s), 3 (MP50s), 4 (both), 8! (both), 9! (both), 12 (both), 18? (both). 13 would seem to apply too (no 3's on a 423' hole). That is 8 of 18 holes - almost half the course.

What that tells me is that on a 260' hole, for instance, there are 2 throws almost 'required' to get to the circle. 260' is fun for most skill levels, but two 130' throws.....not so much. Are the intended throws forced (boring) or just plinko (random - not a good measure/reward of skill)....or something else? I have a hard time imagining that on at least several of these, players encounter NAGS situations (from John Houck's articles, not a golf shot). It is possible that some putting areas are extremely difficult which of course would add to scoring averages.

From the one picture you posted (and the streams - love them!), I would love to visit your course one day!

It is difficult to describe some of these holes adequately, so I'll try to use photos where I can.

Hole 1:

There is a dead straight line, but the safer line is a RHFH shot around the 2 large pines to the left but short of the pine furthest left. It is not a terribly difficult hole. The fence largely blocks RHBH hyzers, but is plenty far enough away from the tee to keep from interfering with a throw (about 6 feet from the front right corner of the tee box). There is an OB creek directly behind the basket about 10 feet. For this tournament, the TD (not me) placed placed a mando left arrow on the utility pole on the right. The course sign will be right above the fence at the corner preventing high RHBH hyzers when it is installed in a week or two.

Hole 3:

I don't have photos of hole 3. It is a somewhat narrow fairway (25' wide at the end) that bends to the right at the end. RHFH or LHBH are the only consistent ways to get into the circle AFAIK.

Hole 3a:

This is a shorter basket placement, dead straight, narrow fairway with an OB creek about 15' to the left of the basket with tall brush/short trees guarding the basket on the left, i.e. creek side. So an RHFH approach depends upon the flora not dropping your disc into the OB creek. Lots of people throw a RHFH drive trying for birdie on a very short hole. An RHBH shot that turns a little or is dead straight will get you a birdie, but the fairway is not wide.

Hole 4:

This is a fairway split by a large tree into two narrow fairways. The basket is on a slope that falls off steeply to the right. What I find on this hole, personally, is that it isn't hard to hit one fairway or the other RHBH, but it is hard to do it with enough power to get into the circle. RHFH is easier to control, but fades the wrong way for the slope at the end. There is OB far to the left, but is hard to hit and I don't think any of the MPO, MP50 or MA players were OB.

Hole 8:

Hole 8 is a straight, narrow, low-ceilinged fairway with the circle creating a dogleg left at the end and a short, upward 7'-8' elevation change within the circle. This requires a dead straight shot that that lands at the right range to give a 20' uphill putt for birdie. There is also a less clear opening for a hyzer. This hole could probably use a little clearing to make it a little easier to get close to the basket. I am counting on foot traffic to clear this hole a little, but may need to help that along.

Hole 9:

This is a bit of a problem child hole. It has a low-ceilinged, split, left-turning fairway leading to a "landing area" at the base of a hill with the basket at the top of the hill about 18' higher in elevation than the tee box. A low throw of appropriate power can put you in good shape for an uncomplicated upshot. A short or long throw can get you in trouble. This is not a difficult hole to par. There is a high RHBH birdie route that is exceedingly tight and a much clearer tomahawk route that can result in a birdie putt, but that comes with a lot of OB and lost disc treachery. That this didn't play as the second most difficult hole probably speaks tot he conservative approach used by most.

Hole 12:

This hole has 2 fairways. One out over the creek to the left that risks OB for a birdie try and the other, to the right, through a tight opening between trees that is an extraordinarily difficult birdie and a par of reasonable difficulty. The difficulty with the birdie on the right route is the fairway is such that getting in the circle off the tee requires a perfect shot through a very small, high window. The left, over-the-creek route likely needs some trimming. There is also a tomahawk route that risks landing in heavy brush for a chance at birdie. One of the locals birdies this with a tomahawk regularly.

Hole 13:

This is just a tough hole. The fairway runs about 175' to a 90 degree dogleg right. The second part of the fairway is about 15'-20' wide for approximately 175' before splitting and then opening up to a circle on an uphill slope. It is possible to cut the corner some on the dogleg, but the more you cut, the more trouble you court. I have 3'd this hole. I have 6'd this hole. A 3 requires that the first two throws be perfect. It's too hard. I know it's too hard. I guess that I have viewed this hole as a must par hole, and it's a fairly difficult par. This hole is one reason why I had hoped for more MPO players and, perversely, probably one of the reasons that few came. It will take a day's work with a chainsaw to make this hole appreciably easier.

Hole 18:

18a and 18b are roughly the same length. Only the 18a basket was installed when the picture below was taken.

18 is a throw in the opposite direction of 7 with the ditch on the right and the basket about 10' from the edge of the ditch. The top edge of the ditch was marked OB for the tournament. My signs list the water in the ditch as marking the OB line. There is a small driveway leading from the street to the small equipment building behind the basket. The 18b basket is in the corner of the park that is bounded on the left by the street and the back-right by the driveway. The same throw up the middle can give you a putt at either basket, but it's a death putt. The MPO players mostly played conservative on both rounds.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

On the pictured hole, how far from the basket to OB left? If someone plays safe to the right, are they risking OB by running a long putt? If so, could that explain the lack of birdies from the MPO field? Could the pros have decided to play for par and seek birdies elsewhere?

Looks like a fun hole to me, anyway. What course is this?

Yes, the basket is about 15 feet from OB as marked in the tournament. The signs will list the water as OB, the TD marked the top edge of the ditch as OB. I watched one of the MP50 players run a long putt, miss and go OB. I didn't get to watch the MPO players on this hole, but the only good reason for a 4 by an MPO player is an OB drive or putt. Some of the MP50 players definitely laid up on their drives.

Kees Park

 

[Dave242]

Good thoughts and explanations on the holes I picked on based on the stats. Thank you for putting that effort in. Like has been said already, having a ratings range rather than division would be helpful for scoring analysis. "MP50" could include really old geezers who just want to play with peers (nothing wrong with that at all - that sort of describes me), but in my mind, I envision that group to be in the ratings range of 935-1000. If the ratings of the MPO & MP50 groups were more in the 900-950 range, my comments/expectations would be modified.

I had not really thought of low ceilings, or a hole that rewards the overhand route (#12) being contributors to higher than expected scoring. Some people hate when designers force a certain throw (a roller or a overhand, for instance)....I love it (even though those are weaknesses in my game) since they test/reward real disc golf skills.

And one last thought - you are very wise to leave stuff to cut down after you see how things play. It is certainly easier to cut/clear than plant/grow.

 

[oldmandiscer]

This is what I have been thinking about the most after the tournament - whether the holes are fair and whether the stats back that up. I'm generally happy with the spread on most holes except 5 where all the MPO scoring spread was basically non-existant (the hole I am thinking about shortening). As to birdies, one hole really stood out and that is hole 7. Out of 54 plays by MPO, MP50 (there were no MP40 players) and MA, there were only 3 birdies, all from the MA players. There were 24 pars and 23 bogies. It averaged 3.64 throws with a MAD of 0.77. Here's a pic of the hole:

It's 350ft exactly. Everything to the left of the near, top edge of the ditch is OB. There is OB behind the basket as well. It played as the third most difficult hole on the course. It is fairly easy to avoid OB on this hole if played conservatively. All of the OB throws were to the left, with no one overthrowing and reaching the OB behind the basket. No one missed the mando. I'm okay with the dearth of birdies and several players I talked to thought this was the best hole on the course. But there's no overlooking the fact that it gave up only about 6% birdies when I did not think it would play so difficult. I do however think that the number of bogies is an encouraging sign that the hole is getting players to be aggressive and go for the birdie. The two mistakes are either trying to flex a disc that is too overstable and fades early or throwing something too understable that turns, burns and cut rolls OB.

There are two holes that are more difficult, one a par 4 that only gave up 1 birdie out of 54 plays (MPO, MP50 and MA) and played at .7 throws above par. It is probably just too difficult and may require a bit of clearing. On the other hand, it had a good spread of scores (MAD 0.71) with half of the plays scoring par and no one really bitching about the difficulty.

Personally I would take out the OB long. The woods should be penalty enough so not really necessary and if someone ends up deep right they will have an obstructed difficult look or pitch out. 6% birdies isn't too bad, it's a difficult hole but looks mostly fair.

 

[txmxer]

The pics you shared look really nice. The first pic you shared seems like the MANDO isn't necessary as others have said.

It's picturesque.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Personally I would take out the OB long. The woods should be penalty enough so not really necessary and if someone ends up deep right they will have an obstructed difficult look or pitch out. 6% birdies isn't too bad, it's a difficult hole but looks mostly fair.

There is a creek back there with a pretty good flow. The basket sits near the point of a triangle bounded by two creeks that converge just behind the basket. OB lets a player play from a drop zone instead of re-teeing for a lost disc.

 

[oldmandiscer]

There is a creek back there with a pretty good flow. The basket sits near the point of a triangle bounded by two creeks that converge just behind the basket. OB lets a player play from a drop zone instead of re-teeing for a lost disc.

Oh I thought it was woods. I hate when TD's make woods OB. :thmbup:

 

[Three Putt]

Really I generally see designs less concerned with safety for events than I see for day to day play. Event players should know better than to bomb an occupied tee pad, so TD's take advantage of that and use tournament tees/placements that would be too dangerous for use by casuals. Generally when I see mandos added for events, they are added to force a shot and add difficulty to the hole. If I saw that mando on a that hole for an event and it wasn't usually there, I'd automatically assume that was there to take away the RHBH hyzer route and force me to go straight at the pin to bring that OB into play, not as a safety measure.

 

[Billipo]

"Technical course" typically is a euphemism for too many trees. Looking at the stats, it is seems that the course is short and putting a premium on accuracy, eliminating the need for distance. In my experience, what separates the Open players from better AMs is typically distance. The course may put uncomfortable constraints on the Open players. Buzz and a putter only bag?

Maybe you are trying to cater to the wrong audience. You take away one of the Open player's tools and they might not be as interested in playing this particular course. Someone else said, courses aren't always for every skill level. Can't force it.

Since I have not seen or played the course, I could be wrong.

Course still could be suitable for tournament play. Maybe more for AMs. My suggestion is to do same data analysis for Advanced and Intermediate players and adjust course for best course for this level of play. Maximizing these players experience.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Event players should know better than to bomb an occupied tee pad . . .

While I agree whole-heartedly, that they should, many of the disc golfers in my area have no clue that they shouldn't throw directly at another tee pad if they think that is a better route to the basket (think better for not losing their disc) and I have watched them do it over and over again. Some will take that beat-in, DX Wraith that is such a meat hook for them and throw it, full power, directly into the wind on a short hole and marvel at it as it "unexpectedly" flips and heads directly at the kiddies in the playground, or another tee box or nearby houses.

Other will throw a hyzer at all costs and cannot imagine that it could possibly be true that they should be confined to throwing a right-turning shot. Those players will also ignore the fact that a tee pad is within reach to the right.

This Mando is for the Rec and Intermediate level players during tournaments and minis. I think that any decent player is going to throw out over the creek anyway. As to casual play, there are never more than two to three groups of players on that course at any one time, and typically not that many, so I wasn't really concerned about ignoring mandos during casual play. But, play may pick up in coming years, so I built a pretty big backstop to protect that in-range tee box anyway.

Now those are my reasons. I do not insist that they are correct and I understand your point. I gave a lot of consideration to both this mando and one other, but decided to go with this one. FWIW, I do plan on adding trees and large shrubs to this course this fall so that I can eliminate most, if not all, mandos. There are several other mandos that I put in after two hurricanes and the city's equipment operator destroyed large parts of the more wooded area of the course and all of those were attempts to maintain the difficulty level I was trying for in the original design, before all the damage.

 

[txmxer]

Other will throw a hyzer at all costs and cannot imagine that it could possibly be true that they should be confined to throwing a right-turning shot. Those players will also ignore the fact that a tee pad is within reach to the right.

but, but, but, they only turn left in NASCAR. Why should we have to turn right?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Definitely needs to get pics of all the holes and maybe even a course map up so that some of the experts here can give you a full and informed critique. The pics so far seem like you have designed a fun and challenging course with not a lot of land to do it with.