Is this course doing it's job?

[Doofenshmirtz]

Definitely needs to get pics of all the holes and maybe even a course map up so that some of the experts here can give you a full and informed critique. The pics so far seem like you have designed a fun and challenging course with not a lot of land to do it with.

Will do. I don't have photos of all the holes yet. I have to do drone flythroughs anyway so I can put QR codes on the course signs so I'll probably post those once they are done.

 

[texasissouth]

Course looks good to me. Pros should be able to win not only with distance, but also as Uli said once, put any Pro within 200' of a basket and they should get up and down every single time.
I would agree with everyone else, any mando should be specifically for safety purposes, or if an unintentional line has opened up over time, generally less are better, and if the pad is protected with a net or something I wouldn't think that one mando was necessary.
Anyway looks like a super fun course from the pics!

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Definitely needs to get pics of all the holes . . .

They are now posted on the course page. I had some issues with my drone, so the flythroughs will have to wait.

 

[Innova63]

Confused...
If you miss the Mando to the right of the arrow, you go to the drop zone in the picture?
But you still have to go around the Mando (arrow)?
Shouldn't the drop zone be to the left of the Arrow (Mando) to force the correct throw?

 

[zenbot]

This is what I have been thinking about the most after the tournament - whether the holes are fair and whether the stats back that up. I'm generally happy with the spread on most holes except 5 where all the MPO scoring spread was basically non-existant (the hole I am thinking about shortening). As to birdies, one hole really stood out and that is hole 7. Out of 54 plays by MPO, MP50 (there were no MP40 players) and MA, there were only 3 birdies, all from the MA players. There were 24 pars and 23 bogies. It averaged 3.64 throws with a MAD of 0.77. Here's a pic of the hole:

It's 350ft exactly. Everything to the left of the near, top edge of the ditch is OB. There is OB behind the basket as well. It played as the third most difficult hole on the course. It is fairly easy to avoid OB on this hole if played conservatively. All of the OB throws were to the left, with no one overthrowing and reaching the OB behind the basket. No one missed the mando. I'm okay with the dearth of birdies and several players I talked to thought this was the best hole on the course. But there's no overlooking the fact that it gave up only about 6% birdies when I did not think it would play so difficult. I do however think that the number of bogies is an encouraging sign that the hole is getting players to be aggressive and go for the birdie. The two mistakes are either trying to flex a disc that is too overstable and fades early or throwing something too understable that turns, burns and cut rolls OB.

There are two holes that are more difficult, one a par 4 that only gave up 1 birdie out of 54 plays (MPO, MP50 and MA) and played at .7 throws above par. It is probably just too difficult and may require a bit of clearing. On the other hand, it had a good spread of scores (MAD 0.71) with half of the plays scoring par and no one really bitching about the difficulty.

It's OK to have a difficult hole.

 

[jeverett]

It's OK to have a difficult hole.

I previously sent it to Doofenshmirtz, but I did a blue-level target group (950-rating average) analysis for his event, and this particular hole came out at a mean of 3.43, with only 3.3% (one score) birdies, but with a fairly healthy scoring spread width of 2.5270 (due to 40% 4's). I was curious as to the percentage of penalties the hole handed out, though. It seems like tracking this percentage could be helpful in determining if the hole is playing fairly or not. Due to a very small sample size, the correlation data wasn't statistically significant, however the hole came out with a small positive (i.e. inverse) correlation with player rating (i.e. higher-rated players performed worse on the hole than lower-rated ones did), which may indicate excessive randomness of scores. "Difficult" holes, on their own, though, I agree can 'work' fine.

 

[zenbot]

I previously sent it to Doofenshmirtz, but I did a blue-level target group (950-rating average) analysis for his event, and this particular hole came out at a mean of 3.43, with only 3.3% (one player/round) birdies, but with a fairly healthy scoring spread width of 2.5270 (due to 40% 4's). I was curious as to the percentage of penalties the hole handed out, though. It seems like tracking this percentage could be helpful in determining if the hole is playing fairly or not. Due to a very small sample size, the correlation data wasn't statistically significant, however the hole came out with a small positive (i.e. inverse) correlation with player rating (i.e. higher-rated players performed worse on the hole than lower-rated ones did), which may indicate excessive randomness of scores. "Difficult" holes, on their own, though, I agree can 'work' fine.

Well, we could introduce the "equity" of holes but I would rather not.

 

[Steve West]

I previously sent it to Doofenshmirtz, but I did a blue-level target group (950-rating average) analysis for his event, and this particular hole came out at a mean of 3.43, with only 3.3% (one score) birdies, but with a fairly healthy scoring spread width of 2.5270 (due to 40% 4's). I was curious as to the percentage of penalties the hole handed out, though. It seems like tracking this percentage could be helpful in determining if the hole is playing fairly or not. Due to a very small sample size, the correlation data wasn't statistically significant, however the hole came out with a small positive (i.e. inverse) correlation with player rating (i.e. higher-rated players performed worse on the hole than lower-rated ones did), which may indicate excessive randomness of scores. "Difficult" holes, on their own, though, I agree can 'work' fine.

Wait, I thought this was a par 4, with only one birdie. How can that average only 3.43?

 

[jeverett]

Wait, I thought this was a par 4, with only one birdie. How can that average only 3.43?

I believe the par 4's were holes 13 and 14 (i.e. not hole 7 being discussed).

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Confused...
If you miss the Mando to the right of the arrow, you go to the drop zone in the picture?
But you still have to go around the Mando (arrow)?
Shouldn't the drop zone be to the left of the Arrow (Mando) to force the correct throw?

There's no safe place to stand to the left of the Mando.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

There's no safe place to stand to the left of the Mando.

I should have added that I thought it was reasonably obvious if you are standing at the drop zone, but that may be a mistake. I will add language to the sign to clarify. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Innova63]

I should have added that I thought it was reasonably obvious if you are standing at the drop zone, but that may be a mistake. I will add language to the sign to clarify. Thanks for pointing this out.

Maybe make the short term the dropzone...

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The course finally had two tournaments under it's belt. These are the MPO scores for the event, the Louisiana State Championships the past weekend.

During the tournament, I got an earful from one of the MPO players about how the course was unfair, random, needed ALL of the underbrush cleared out, needs to add additional lines on all of the heavily wooded holes, etc. My favorite comment by far was, "If it wasn't for Kees, I would have been in the money." The other two courses are basically wide open by comparison. The TD (not me), was told by one of the MA players that Kees wasn't a "Pro" course because the MPO players were reduced to teeing off with putters on some of the holes. Another MPO player was pissed that the best score was posted by an MP50 player and that a 52 got a 1000 round rating.

Anyway, I might be losing the tournament feedback battle, but most of the local players seem to be happy with the course so far.

 

[autocrosscrx]

The scores link doesn't work, but you can poke around at...

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/51621

Honestly, the scores look kind of random. None of the highest rated players or top players at the event had their best there.

That doesn't mean it is a bad course, but if I were a serious tournament player that cared about ratings and finishing positions, I think I would have my doubts about playing there.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The scores link doesn't work, but you can poke around at...

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/51621

Honestly, the scores look kind of random. None of the highest rated players or top players at the event had their best there.

Since it was the most difficult course of the tournament, it really didn't surprise me that they didn't have their best score there. I'm not really sure what to make of the random comment. I can't say that I'm too worried that players didn't finish in the order of their rating. The lead card was filmed, so I'm interested to see the approaches to these holes. They were the card ahead of mine but I only got to see an occasional throw.

That doesn't mean it is a bad course, but if I were a serious tournament player that cared about ratings and finishing positions, I think I would have my doubts about playing there.

Well, at least one of them had more than doubts! I was on the card with the MP50 player that shot the low score. Honestly, there were no heroics. He just played a smart game and mostly hit his lines. You don't need a big arm on this course and big arms didn't help the MPO players.

 

[Steve West]

There weren't nearly enough player/rounds to make any kind of judgement about randomness.

Besides, as we all know, no one with a rating that isn't four digits is allowed to have a say about anything in disc golf.

 

[rhatton1]

The course finally had two tournaments under it's belt. These are the MPO scores for the event, the Louisiana State Championships the past weekend.

What was happening on hole 7? I know pictures never do it justice but it looks like there is the height on that hole and the shape for a fairly simple RHBH baby flex with a mid or fairway to pick up a relatively easy 2 or 3?

Is the OB really close to the basket? Is it a drop zone for any OB, not just drive? I can't rationalise those MPO scores with the hole I'm seeing (which looks a really fun hole BTW)

As for moaning "Pros", frankly f*** 'em. If you think it was Kee's that cost you cash, well, um' I've got news for you my mid 900's friend.....

 

[filobedo]

The course finally had two tournaments under it's belt. These are the MPO scores for the event, the Louisiana State Championships the past weekend.

During the tournament, I got an earful from one of the MPO players about how the course was unfair, random, needed ALL of the underbrush cleared out, needs to add additional lines on all of the heavily wooded holes, etc. My favorite comment by far was, "If it wasn't for Kees, I would have been in the money." The other two courses are basically wide open by comparison. The TD (not me), was told by one of the MA players that Kees wasn't a "Pro" course because the MPO players were reduced to teeing off with putters on some of the holes. Another MPO player was pissed that the best score was posted by an MP50 player and that a 52 got a 1000 round rating.

Anyway, I might be losing the tournament feedback battle, but most of the local players seem to be happy with the course so far.

Lots of very high PDGA#'s in the event. The past couple of years the sport has brought in lots of new players who have no idea how most tournament courses other than IDGC and Majors were set up with maybe one par 4 and 17 par 3s 8+ years ago.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

What was happening on hole 7? I know pictures never do it justice but it looks like there is the height on that hole and the shape for a fairly simple RHBH baby flex with a mid or fairway to pick up a relatively easy 2 or 3?

Is the OB really close to the basket? Is it a drop zone for any OB, not just drive? I can't rationalise those MPO scores with the hole I'm seeing (which looks a really fun hole BTW)

As for moaning "Pros", frankly f*** 'em. If you think it was Kee's that cost you cash, well, um' I've got news for you my mid 900's friend.....

The TD decided to make all OB shots off the tee use the drop zone. The basket is also fairly close to OB. This hole has ended up playing much more difficult than I thought it would and yet most people I have talked to like the hole.

BTW, I threw OB and ended up with a 5.

 

[araytx]

Oh I thought it was woods. I hate when TD's make woods OB. :thmbup:

The TD decided to make all OB shots off the tee use the drop zone. The basket is also fairly close to OB. This hole has ended up playing much more difficult than I thought it would and yet most people I have talked to like the hole.

BTW, I threw OB and ended up with a 5.

I didn't see the problems, especially since they got two rounds on more open courses. That way there was some balance and it would take some semblance of well-roundedness to do best.

My only "concern"/issue was with the forced DZ on hole 7. I do realize you pointed out that was not your call, however one thing I absolutely feel I don't like and isn't fair to players is a forced drop zone when there is both OB and trees/obstacles in the circle. On that hole if a player goes OB long there should be a way he/she could choose the OB spot. I recognize the issue with "oh did it cross and where," etc., but for something like that get a spotter. A player really could throw an excellent shot, barely nick that tree & ricochet OB and have to go back 150-ish feet or whatever that DZ is.

As disc golfers I know we've gotten so used to forced drop zones over the recent years, to the that newer players don't even know what the regular rule is (now called the "optional drop zone" by some). I'd think this would be a good place to have a spotter and apply the true OB rule -- OB throws get all three options, like the book says.