Lead shoulder shrug

[stratedge]

When I throw, I shrug my lead should up high, really high, and it's driving me absolutely crazy. It seems like such an easy thing to fix ("just relax" or "don't strong arm the disc") but it's not that simple... my shoulders ARE relaxed. Or at least, they feel relaxed to me, and so I can't relax anymore than they are. :wall:

(Sorry for the blur, iphone video. Ignore the disc being high, it's a byproduct of the shrug.)

Trying to keep my left arm tight to my body, and even doing the "swim" to accelerate my throwing arm through the hit, seems to have made this worse of late. I think that the negative consequences of the shrug are it slows the movement of the disc into and through the power pocket, and also causes the disc itself to move on an uneven plane (as you can see in the picture, the disc swoops if I do it badly).

Please understand before commenting that when I throw, I swear I'm not doing it. I check a video, say "I'm not going to do that", try to compensate in any number of different ways, think "yeah that was better", check the video, and get angry because it's still there and maybe even worse now. The obvious answer would be that I'm using my shoulder to initiate the throw, or pull it into my body, but I swear to you I am not. I'm working on keeping my upper arm at a fixed 90 degrees to my shoulders, and only using my forearm to go out-in-out during the throw. There's some break in my shoulder off 90 degrees still, but for the most part, I feel I've really transitioned towards hips/core/shoulders and am not an arm-based thrower anymore. I can get in the 400-425 range, though I honestly couldn't tell you if I'm completely not shrugging when I do that or it's still there.

My own theory at the moment is that it's not a problem with the way I'm pulling the disc forward (towards the target), it's actually something about the way I pull the disc towards my body for the power pocket. Like... I naturally want to pull the disc to my sternum, maybe I'm aiming too high and subconsciously 'choking up' to get the disc higher? Maybe I'll try pulling through lower tomorrow and seeing what happens?

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with this? How did you address it?

 

[sidewinder22]

See it all the time, and used to do it. Often related to trying to "shift from in front" instead of "shifting from behind". You aren't swinging your shoulder balanced on your front leg/hip, you are falling/collapsing behind your front leg/hip so your shoulder gets jacked up behind the leg/hip instead of swinging over it. You really have to get up on your front hip to allow your shoulder to hang and swing freely. It will probably feel over very the top to you doing one leg drill.

 

[UhhNegative]

Go very slowly, perpetual motion swing back and forth. Let the arm/disc have its own weight and there's no way your shoulder can shrug up like that. Then slowly add speed but the lower arm has to stay loose. The lag into the chest happens naturally as the elbow goes forward. The "inward pull" to the power pocket isn't something that you do with your arm consciously. Your butt/hips is what is what should be pulling the whole thing forwards. So to sidewinders point, it might be a problem from the bottom up.

 

[stratedge]

See it all the time, and used to do it. Often related to trying to "shift from in front" instead of "shifting from behind". You aren't swinging your shoulder balanced on your front leg/hip, you are falling/collapsing behind your front leg/hip so your shoulder gets jacked up behind the leg/hip instead of swinging over it. You really have to get up on your front hip to allow your shoulder to hang and swing freely. It will probably feel over very the top to you doing one leg drill.

Can't thank you enough for this input, this makes a lot of sense to me and was not where I was looking. Seems kind of obvious too. It's like I can't find my sunglasses, and you point out they're on top of my head.

I've been experimenting a lot with good hip rotation and actively powering the hips, and a lot of the stuff from other posts about "jamming up" on the right hip rather than freely rotating around it has been an issue I recognized. Hadn't connected it with the shoulder, and I am basically focused on one thing at a time. I thought I'd mostly addressed the hip thing but I bet it's creeping back in.

So... help me understand what good feels like, please. For a while last year I was blowing through my plant foot, and essentially taking one step forward after the throw, but fairly under control. The throws felt good but I wanted to harness that energy and stay back more, the goal being to finish close to balanced on my front leg, just like the one leg drill. Does it seem like I've gone too far the other way, and what I need is something in between?

I actually feel like I can do the one leg pretty well, I just don't think I'm using it in the same way I should be during a run up.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Can't thank you enough for this input, this makes a lot of sense to me and was not where I was looking. Seems kind of obvious too. It's like I can't find my sunglasses, and you point out they're on top of my head.

I've been experimenting a lot with good hip rotation and actively powering the hips, and a lot of the stuff from other posts about "jamming up" on the right hip rather than freely rotating around it has been an issue I recognized. Hadn't connected it with the shoulder, and I am basically focused on one thing at a time. I thought I'd mostly addressed the hip thing but I bet it's creeping back in.

So... help me understand what good feels like, please. For a while last year I was blowing through my plant foot, and essentially taking one step forward after the throw, but fairly under control. The throws felt good but I wanted to harness that energy and stay back more, the goal being to finish close to balanced on my front leg, just like the one leg drill. Does it seem like I've gone too far the other way, and what I need is something in between?

I actually feel like I can do the one leg pretty well, I just don't think I'm using it in the same way I should be during a run up.

Hello, my name is Lumberjack, and I'm a shoulder shrugger.

Proof:

This issue has frustrated me as well. I believe that it's a result of improper balance or posture, as SW said. I tend to drift right to left into my plant, instead of striding straighter and shifting from behind. I really need to strip it down to the one leg drill, and then to a stand still, then to an x-step, etc. It's likely not as hard of a fix as I'm making it out to be. I really want to try just over-exaggerating a straight, almost L-R stride into the plant to try to un-do ingrained bad habits.

As to what you're asking, I recommend you watch this video. Over. And over. And over.

 

[drk_evns]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134329

You're not doing Step 3.

 

[stratedge]

It will probably feel over very the top to you doing one leg drill.

... also, would you mind clarifying this. Are you saying you think I'll feel like I'm going to fall forward doing the one leg drill? If so, forward towards the target or forward over my toes?

 

[sidewinder22]

So... help me understand what good feels like, please. For a while last year I was blowing through my plant foot, and essentially taking one step forward after the throw, but fairly under control. The throws felt good but I wanted to harness that energy and stay back more, the goal being to finish close to balanced on my front leg, just like the one leg drill. Does it seem like I've gone too far the other way, and what I need is something in between?

Probably. Finding balance is usually a series of corrections back and forth less and less, just like learning to walk.

... also, would you mind clarifying this. Are you saying you think I'll feel like I'm going to fall forward doing the one leg drill? If so, forward towards the target or forward over my toes?

Wherever your chest is pointed.

 

[stratedge]

Probably. Finding balance is usually a series of corrections back and forth less and less, just like learning to walk.

What if I told you that tonight I took video while doing the one leg drill, and I'm still shrugging?

I can stand on one leg, throw hard, stay balanced, and yet while the disc is in the power pocket my throwing arm shoulder is still high. I'm taking this as an indication that the problem is not with where my centre of balance is / jamming up, but more to do with how I move the disc with my arm. I was trying to feel it as I do it, and I think I was right when I said it has to do with how I pull the disc to my chest and then out again; I think I am subconsciously / muscle memory using my shoulder t and can't stop. Obviously it doesn't happen if I just bring the disc to my chest, so I think I've got some kind of issue where it's like my shoulder is bracing just like my leg is... it's getting ready for the disc to power through, and subconsciously tightens up.

I'm going to need shock therapy or something...

 

[sidewinder22]

What if I told you that tonight I took video while doing the one leg drill, and I'm still shrugging?

I can stand on one leg, throw hard, stay balanced, and yet while the disc is in the power pocket my throwing arm shoulder is still high. I'm taking this as an indication that the problem is not with where my centre of balance is / jamming up, but more to do with how I move the disc with my arm. I was trying to feel it as I do it, and I think I was right when I said it has to do with how I pull the disc to my chest and then out again; I think I am subconsciously / muscle memory using my shoulder t and can't stop. Obviously it doesn't happen if I just bring the disc to my chest, so I think I've got some kind of issue where it's like my shoulder is bracing just like my leg is... it's getting ready for the disc to power through, and subconsciously tightens up.

I'm going to need shock therapy or something...

I'd like to see the video/s. You have to let go of your arm/disc and swing your shoulder.

 

[Twistedhorse]

What if I told you that tonight I took video while doing the one leg drill, and I'm still shrugging?

I can stand on one leg, throw hard, stay balanced, and yet while the disc is in the power pocket my throwing arm shoulder is still high. I'm taking this as an indication that the problem is not with where my centre of balance is / jamming up, but more to do with how I move the disc with my arm. I was trying to feel it as I do it, and I think I was right when I said it has to do with how I pull the disc to my chest and then out again; I think I am subconsciously / muscle memory using my shoulder t and can't stop. Obviously it doesn't happen if I just bring the disc to my chest, so I think I've got some kind of issue where it's like my shoulder is bracing just like my leg is... it's getting ready for the disc to power through, and subconsciously tightens up.

I'm going to need shock therapy or something...

were you able to fix it?

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Twistedhorse]

does it matter if your backswing is low or high?

 

[sidewinder22]

does it matter if your backswing is low or high?

Nope.

 

[Flashblastx]

My own theory at the moment is that it's not a problem with the way I'm pulling the disc forward (towards the target), it's actually something about the way I pull the disc towards my body for the power pocket. Like... I naturally want to pull the disc to my sternum, maybe I'm aiming too high and subconsciously 'choking up' to get the disc higher? Maybe I'll try pulling through lower tomorrow and seeing what happens?

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with this? How did you address it?

From my own personal journey from strong arming like a madman and throwing 420 to learning how to use everything but my arm and throwing 540 hopefully this helps.

I think you have the answer to your own problem for shrugging, look at you word choice. "Pulling" the disc. You never physically pull the disc. Never, never, never.

This might sound strange but your arm does nothing. It is limp, the looser your arm the farther you will throw.

When you pull the disc your shoulder shrugs, que Loopghost video SW posted.

So to not pull, focus leaving the disc behind you when you turn your torso around. Do not reach back just leave your hand right where it is when you start to turn your torso.

Or try just turning your torso backwards and turning your torso forward with a completely loose dingle arm. If your arm is truly completely relaxed and your shoulder is still shrugging we got something else going on but I truly think this will help and is a common issue. Feels strong to pull but pulling is slow, slinging a 15 pound meat sack with your core is fast and powerful, not strong (strong arming vs being a human whip)

I'm a bit of a believer in the term power pocket screwing people up. It's a byproduct of a bigger picture but people focus on that instead of more important concepts and try to make positions happen in an artificial way and end up in all funny sorts of positions.

 

[Twistedhorse]

saw this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Bjd53Fv8

is it something that you should actively try to do? shrug your shoulders forward?

 

[sidewinder22]

saw this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Bjd53Fv8

is it something that you should actively try to do? shrug your shoulders forward?

Pulled taut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ&t=7m

 

[Twistedhorse]

it seems like when I try to keep my left arm close to my body it raises up my shoulder, maybe because of me trying to punch the arm down as fast as possible. My shoulders get scrunched together and thus raising one of them somehow.

 

[sidewinder22]

it seems like when I try to keep my left arm close to my body it raises up my shoulder, maybe because of me trying to punch the arm down as fast as possible. My shoulders get scrunched together and thus raising one of them somehow.

Don't try to punch down. Move forward not spilling the beverage and left arm should finish like an uppercut getting pulled thru. Try to keep the left shoulder higher than right shoulder, so left shoulder is the post of the right shoulder/arm to swing from like a tetherball. The left shoulder will drop as the right shoulder swings forward.

 

[hisdudeness47]

The weight shift epiphany I've had in the last weeks all makes crystal clear sense once reading this thread and watching the Clement video.

"Toss, ... , fall, fall"

That's all it is. I could have a year back of my life with those words had I known them earlier. Don't let it happen to YOU.