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Legalities of disc flattening/adjustments/etc... Change?

prerube said:
They are not my posts, you search for one of the other 12 disc modification threads.
Do you even know what the search feature is? It is not a "Best of Prerube"
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No clue what the searchey thingey you talk about is. I did a Google search for "Best of Prerube" and all got was a "Did you mean: DGCR Forum Junkie"

I would guess (since I have no clue what a search is) that the other 12 threads did not have anything about starting a company to mod a current disc for resale and the legality and possibility of said disc to still be PDGA legal and info and insight into said project from Chuck.

I feel like this is a good current discussion. This would be a pretty boring place if old topics were never brought back to life to be reevaluated. To simply jump head first into a thread that I would bet you didn't even read, just to say "This is old news, USE THE SEARCH" is pretty lame. If you are so bored with this topic then feel free to skip this thread, no need to try and call others out that are having a great discussion.

-Chris
 
prerube said:
Wait I was just told this thread was civil.

This topic goes the same route each time.

Player 1: leaves his roc in the hot car and it flattens
Player 2: tacos his roc on the very first throw and when returning it to it's original shape it flattens
Player 3: gets a new roc and decides he wants a flat top so he heats it up and flattens it

Now you are the 4th person on the card, try to tell me you can pick out the illegally flattened roc.
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That's why i have a problem with the rule as written. I wish i were smarter and could come up with an awesome rule that would be perfect, but i don't think there is.

There a quite a few people in this thread having a fairly civil conversation about ways to possibly re-write the rule in order to knock out some of the difficulty in enforcement.
 
wake911 said:
That's why i have a problem with the rule as written. I wish i were smarter and could come up with an awesome rule that would be perfect, but i don't think there is.

There a quite a few people in this thread having a fairly civil conversation about ways to possibly re-write the rule in order to knock out some of the difficulty in enforcement.
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you are right that there is probably no way to enforce intent.
You do not know how, where, when, or why discs get modified.

Flashing is the same situation. It naturally wears off or can be "lightly sanded" but people cut it off with a knife right infront of the TD, no one ever says a thing.

Oh and Chirs, I Googled you and got: Sorry 0 results found.
 
This is one of those areas where you could say, "Be careful what you wish for." We should be fortunate that lack of rigid enforcement is primarily due to the perceived inability for "cheaters" to do some sort of tweaking that would sufficiently impact the game. In a way it's similar to enforcement of foot faults. Except for putting and maybe funky stances near obstacles, most players inherently don't believe another player "cheating" in their release point makes enough difference in the outcome to call it.

If tweaking the disc did matter whether intentional or accidental, we might see an additional level of enforcement (hassle/cost) or even a scenario where the discs were provided for tournament play at the pro level and you couldn't use your own.
 
Skill trumphs modified discs. The risk of damaging the disc while modifying it is about the same chance as getting the exact results you wanted. Your flattened roc could turn into a flippy clover topped mess.

I guess I am just more concerned with people knowingly or unknowingly using overweight discs (180g wizards for example) than illegally flattened discs. Those would give the thrower more advantage than the modified disc, but that is a whole different topic.
 
Cgkdisc said:
This is one of those areas where you could say, "Be careful what you wish for." We should be fortunate that lack of rigid enforcement is primarily due to the perceived inability for "cheaters" to do some sort of tweaking that would sufficiently impact the game. In a way it's similar to enforcement of foot faults. Except for putting and maybe funky stances near obstacles, most players inherently don't believe another player "cheating" in their release point makes enough difference in the outcome to call it.

If tweaking the disc did matter whether intentional or accidental, we might see an additional level of enforcement (hassle/cost) or even a scenario where the discs were provided for tournament play at the pro level and you couldn't use your own.
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That's a very transparent bluff. There's no way the PDGA would do that. They wouldn't risk losing all of the players who like using their own discs as long as they want just so they don't have to admit that one of their rules is worded poorly.
 
I'm not saying it's a bluff. I'm just saying that having the rule where it's sportsmanship driven to some extent means cheating by tweaking is not seen as sufficiently egregious to require more rigid enforcement.
 
prerube said:
Skill trumphs modified discs. The risk of damaging the disc while modifying it is about the same chance as getting the exact results you wanted. Your flattened roc could turn into a flippy clover topped mess.

I guess I am just more concerned with people knowingly or unknowingly using overweight discs (180g wizards for example) than illegally flattened discs. Those would give the thrower more advantage than the modified disc, but that is a whole different topic.
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I have a friend who tried to flat-top a firebird and had no idea how to do it properly. It came out so clover-topped I couldn't fix it. Guess I'm glad I'm into science and know how to do things properly when doing things like that. As for the legality of the stuff... if Innova was able to produce stuff consistently we wouldn't have to do it. If PDGA knew how to write rules correctly we wouldn't be having this conversation. And if people had real options as to what to buy, rather than having to get half their stuff online and the other half from ****ty retailers with no selection... we wouldn't have to deal with this.

Disc modifiers are making the best they can out of a situation where we are overloaded by horrible discs while awesome discs are hard to find. I blame Innova and the PDGA for the situation, not the inventive players who fix the mistakes Innova floods the market with.
 
DeadEye said:
I have a friend who tried to flat-top a firebird and had no idea how to do it properly. It came out so clover-topped I couldn't fix it. Guess I'm glad I'm into science and know how to do things properly when doing things like that. As for the legality of the stuff... if Innova was able to produce stuff consistently we wouldn't have to do it. If PDGA knew how to write rules correctly we wouldn't be having this conversation. And if people had real options as to what to buy, rather than having to get half their stuff online and the other half from ****ty retailers with no selection... we wouldn't have to deal with this.

Disc modifiers are making the best they can out of a situation where we are overloaded by horrible discs while awesome discs are hard to find. I blame Innova and the PDGA for the situation, not the inventive players who fix the mistakes Innova floods the market with.
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So write the rule now. That is what this thread is about. Show the PDGA your perfectly worded rule...GO...
 
bombmk said:
You are not allowed to manufacture the disc with scratches, I believe. Or dents in the rim.

What then?
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If that is in the tech specs than you are going to have to replace a bunch of discs. That is why the tech specs should be taken down to require no holes, minimum diameter of 21 cm, max rim of 2.5 cm, and some sort of profile height requirement. All of those are easy to test on the spot, AND a beat in disc would not fall out of the guidelines.
 
Wow, I drifted away from this to find a slew of new goodies.

I definitely like that an effort has been made by the forum of people who care about this.

We all can see how this is a glaring error and that a rewritten rule would fix this. Now if we can collectively agree on a rule that covers this... we'd be magicians.

Difficult to change, yes. Impossible, nope.
 
The problem for all of this is enforcement. Do we really want a situation where every disc of every player at a tourney has to be checked and approved before a round? And then re-done each round to insure all replacements are legal too?

I think i've come to terms with the fact that the manufacturing process isn't as accurate as we'd like it to be. And I feel for the prices we pay for higher end plastic should be. But that is life. Either buy discs in person so you can check them all out, or accept you might not get what you want in an online purchase.

Thanks for the spirited conversation from all. I went from never thinking about flattening a disc, to wanting to be able to fix inaccuracies, to being fine with the fact that the rule is what it is, and we just have to trust our fellow disc golfers. Some will cheat, but if i really get beat because a guy made his domey roc into a flat top.....i think I've got an issue with my playing.
 
MNcyclone said:
If that is in the tech specs than you are going to have to replace a bunch of discs. That is why the tech specs should be taken down to require no holes, minimum diameter of 21 cm, max rim of 2.5 cm, and some sort of profile height requirement. All of those are easy to test on the spot, AND a beat in disc would not fall out of the guidelines.
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Remember; if you do not specify stuff in the tech specs, the rule being based on those - then anything that is not in specs is allowed from the production moment. Dimples, uneven edge (Quest had a fantastic bottlecap putter that was designed to really grab the chains). Ripples on the top.

It is easy to make a simple rule. Not quite so easy to make one that has a decent chance of being of standing up to the entrepeneurs of the game.

It is easy to look at a rule and say it is way to encompassing - but usually it is the result of an evolvement that you want to reset.
 
wake911 said:
Some will cheat, but if i really get beat because a guy made his domey roc into a flat top.....i think I've got an issue with my playing.
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Exactly. If you can't tell that he broke a rule - it does not really matter. But that does not mean the rule should not be there - because it covers those situations where you can.

And the easiest way to write such a rule is to just say "don't". Instead of having all sorts of definitions and disclaimers that just opens up their own equivalent can of worms.

It is not a hard rule to follow - nor an unreasonable one.
 
prerube said:
a disc that is flattened will still meet specs.
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Correct. The only problem is that DX/Pro can become extremely hard with the hot water method and would not pass the "flex test". Then again none of the current KC Pro, Stiff Champ (Flat FB/Glow Rhyno), or any of the Gateway Med/Soft would pass. It's kinda a joke.

What is the point of the "Flex test" anyway? Please don't tell me it's due to safety.

-Chris
 
Yes, the flex test is about safety. Some of those production discs have been submitted for testing and have passed and some have not with the manufacturer swapping out discs with those that didn't comply.
 
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