Penal Design

[optidiscic]

Also a matter of taste.

I've known a few disc golfers to gamble on their rounds. A decent body of water allows you to gamble on that one shot.

The fact that you don't want to lose a disc heightens the mental pressure and, to those of us who like it, the game. When I face a water carry I think, "Do I want to risk my best driver? Or throw a less-valuable driver---which, because it's not my best, is even more likely to not make it?"

This is not really making a disc golf decision.....this is a wallet decision. A disc golf decision is bogey vs birdy. I don't like decisions that affect my wallet.

These decisions are not really part of the game and to me make little sense if used in abundance on a course......multiple tough shots over ponds etc.

It's a matter of taste and I have not acquired that taste yet. Probably never will

 

[DavidSauls]

The gamble part was meant as a joke---and a jab at those who wager money in disc golf, thus shouldn't mind wagering a disc.

The disc golf decision is about risking being without that disc, not the financials. At least for those players with a surplus of discs, which I realize isn't everyone.

I generally agree that it shouldn't be used in abundance, because if you have 10 slight chances to lose a disc in the round, over the course of the round you've got a pretty good chance. Then again, you can overuse almost any design feature on a course.

Trophy Lakes (Charleston, SC) has more water carries than any course I've played....yet I love it, because it's used creatively and forces me to make decisions. And bad player and noodle-arm that I am, I've played tournament rounds there without losing a disc.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's a matter of taste and I have not acquired that taste yet. Probably never will

.....and, to be clear, I'm not saying you should.

Just offering the reasons some people like courses with water hazards, and thus why some designers use them.

 

[optidiscic]

.....and, to be clear, I'm not saying you should.

Just offering the reasons some people like courses with water hazards, and thus why some designers use them.

yeah Ive looked at that Trphy Lakes coursepage and shook my head and hugged my bag of discs and told them not to worry we will never go there

 

[jenb]

A plurality of 18 inch gaps does not a fairway make.

 

[optidiscic]

A plurality of 18 inch gaps does not a fairway make.

but a clear fairway with such 18 inch gaps to the left and right makes for a dandy design IMO

 

[Ricky_Rick]

Also a matter of taste.

I've known a few disc golfers to gamble on their rounds. A decent body of water allows you to gamble on that one shot.

The fact that you don't want to lose a disc heightens the mental pressure and, to those of us who like it, the game. When I face a water carry I think, "Do I want to risk my best driver? Or throw a less-valuable driver---which, because it's not my best, is even more likely to not make it?"

Fair enough. I do like the look of a nicely made water hole and dont mind playing them from time to time. I actually have an older bag I keep around with my back-up discs in my least favorite colors just for this kind of course. That removes some of the stress and decision making when my level of caring is so low I can chuck the disc without fear of consequence.

Good quote too! :thmbup: Your question in quotes is why I gave up on floater discs, same thought in my head. Do I use my favorite driver with a 90-95% chance of success or use the floater I know I throw bad and has a 50/50 shot of going in and floating. So long floaters, hello ugly versions of my favorite discs.

 

[DavidSauls]

yeah Ive looked at that Trphy Lakes coursepage and shook my head and hugged my bag of discs and told them not to worry we will never go there

LOL. I hope they're appreciative and fly well for you.

 

[DavidSauls]

but a clear fairway with such 18 inch gaps to the left and right makes for a dandy design IMO

Back on topic, I also like clearly defined fairways with woods off the fairway, where you have to execute a creative recovery shot if you miss the fairway.

But.....these have "fairness" issues as well. If your drive or upshot wanders off the fairway and hits a tree, there are a variety of possible outcomes. You might get a lucky kick back into the fairway, or an unlucky kick deep into the woods. You might land where you have a route back into and up the fairway, if you can pull it off. You might land immediately behind a tree where you have no good stance, and/or no gap back to the fairway.

I'm not knocking this. I come from other sports where you "play the percentages", and in this case the percentages are clearly with keeping your drive in the fairway. But when discussing the unfairness of various course features, and their inconsistent punishment of bad shots, wooded courses with no O.B. or fast greens have issues too.

 

[Thumber]

I'm not knocking this. I come from other sports where you "play the percentages", and in this case the percentages are clearly with keeping your drive in the fairway. But when discussing the unfairness of various course features, and their inconsistent punishment of bad shots, wooded courses with no O.B. or fast greens have issues too.

Players have some ability to affect this though. A RHBH player should be looking to run the right edge of a wooded fairway as the spin of the disc tends to kick it back out onto the fairway, while the spin will want to suck the disc into the left edge.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think the side of the tree you hit has a much greater effect on which way your disc kicks.

 

[Stan McDaniel]

yeah Ive looked at that Trphy Lakes coursepage and shook my head and hugged my bag of discs and told them not to worry we will never go there

It is a wonderful course. There is plenty of room for you to bail out if you feel the risk is too great for your potential reward.

 

[Thumber]

I think the side of the tree you hit has a much greater effect on which way your disc kicks.

Both factor in, but only one is in the control of the player. If you hit the right edge of a tree on the right side of the fairway with a rhbh and it keeps flying, the disc is going to work back towards the fairway.

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps in theory. But I experimented with this at Charlotte Worlds, especially with almost 100* shots in a round at Angry Beaver, and the evidence is that if you miss the fairway, on either side, you can end up in all kinds of places, some not-so-bad, some so-bad.

(*-OK, 81, but it seemed like 100)

 

[Stan McDaniel]

Perhaps in theory. But I experimented with this at Charlotte Worlds, especially with almost 100* shots in a round at Angry Beaver, and the evidence is that if you miss the fairway, on either side, you can end up in all kinds of places, some not-so-bad, some so-bad.

(*-OK, 81, but it seemed like 100)

I experimented with 61 last night from the longs at the Angry.

 

[IHearChains]

Lakes/Ponds Water with disc loss possibility: Pretty but Nope who wants to lose your best driver...think the Memorial/Fountain Hills...and then you are doomed the rest of your round

Disagree...I think this is one of the most fun things about disc golf. Water hazards are great. There is nothing like the feeling of the adrenaline rush when you step up to your lie with your best driver, heart pounding, and have to throw into a wind and carry over a long water hazard. With a bunch of people watching. Knowing that you might lose your best driver, while also knowing that your best driver gives you the best chance to actually make the throw. Oooh I want to get out there and play West Lake now.

 

[IHearChains]

It is a wonderful course. There is plenty of room for you to bail out if you feel the risk is too great for your potential reward.

I think this is the key to great water hazard holes I've played. If its a long ways over water, set it up so the angle of the shoreline allows access from the tee to shorter landing zones for those who want to titrate their risk and play for 3 instead of trying to park the drive. It forces the player to decide how much risk they want to take. For example

.....*./
....../
..../
../
.\ (water)
...\
.....\
....T \

 

[KniceZ]

Courses should focus more on risk and reward not overly punitive OBs.

Like:
relatively open fairways with trees, bushes in the direct line that force shaped shots
water hazards that still have high probability of disc retrevial (creek at Hawk Hallow)
wooded fairways that gradually get denser (recover with creative shots)
basket placement that have added risk for "going for it"
Off fairway conditions that force standing throws

Don't Like:
artifical / contrived mandos
Manmade obsticles
wooded fairways lined by inpenetrable brush and trees (getting just a little off adds multiple strokes)
fairways filled with trees to the point that it's basically random luck (plinko)

 

[DavidSauls]

I think this is the key to great water hazard holes I've played. If its a long ways over water, set it up so the angle of the shoreline allows access from the tee to shorter landing zones for those who want to titrate their risk and play for 3 instead of trying to park the drive. It forces the player to decide how much risk they want to take. For example

.....*./
....../
..../
../
.\ (water)
...\
.....\
....T \

The aforementioned Trophy Lakes uses water in different ways, including this. There's also a place where water starts about 200' from tee and it takes 330' to clear it, so you can decide whether to go for it, or lay up and go over on the 2nd throw. (Even if you throw 330' easily, there's the danger of hitting leaves and getting slowed).

It also has multiple teepads so you can play the safer ones, if you like.

 

[iacas]

.....*./
....../
..../
../
.\ (water)
...\
.....\
....T \

Diagonals are nice. There are several famous golf holes that employ diagonal hazards - bite off as much as you want. They aren't considered "penal" by design - they're too strategic to count as "penal."

Good players and poor players can all play these kinds of holes, too. "Penal" and "Heroic" are often very closely related, but again, yeah, this is more strategic (and a hole design I quite like).