Placing a mini on the tee pad.

[Steve West]

Moved from Green Mountain.

Can someone who is up on the rules let me know who is right about using a marker on the tee pad? The situation comes up at 1:01:30. Jerm places a mini marker on the tee pad and Uli tells him that it isn't legal.

Thank you in advance.

Can 813.02 Illegal Device
A. A player must not use any device that directly assists in making a throw. Devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, or gauze) and medical items (such as knee or ankle braces) are allowed. Placing an object as a directional aid is not allowed. An item such as a towel or a pad may be placed on the lie as long as it is not greater than one centimeter in thickness when compressed.
B. A device that is questioned by another player or an Official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.
C. A player receives two penalty throws if observed at any time during a round to be using an illegal device. A player who repeatedly uses an illegal device may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.03 of the PDGA Competition Manual.

It would seem to me the towel would be legal, but for the mini it would depend. If someone called it then it would be illegal at least until you talk to the TD.

Hopefully someone who is more knowledgeable of the rules will chime in on this.

The tee is your lie. You can't put anything in front of your lie.

where does it say that?

Uli was making a case for using a mini as a directional aid, citing Lisa Fajkus' penalty... hence illegal. I suppose you could use a mini as a directional aid, in which case, I suppose it would be illegal.

But I wouldn't say Jerm's use of it there was directional. Although he was allowed to use the entire tee as a lie, he chose to mark his lie farther back on the line of play, specifically to avoid the dip at the front of the tee.

I don't see how that particular use of a mini is any different than standard use of a mini.
He just chose to move farther from the basket along the LOP.

I would've have taken this discussion over to the rules forum, to avoid derailing this thread. It's just too big a pain in the butt to do it on my phone.

Jerm was being a bit dramatic imo. There's a depression at the front of the teepad, so just take one more step back before throwing. The towel is unnecessary.

 

[Karl]

MY logic (although I'd be willing to ameliorate my stance if "better logic" was to come forth) would be to allow the mini to be placed on the tee...but the player would then HAVE to 'hit their mark' (delineated by said mini) while throwing from that tee. Otherwise it COULD be a directional marker, etc.

 

[robdeforge]

I would think it's pretty clear that "directional aid" means aiding in the direction of a thrown disc, i.e. what lisa fajkus did. placing a mini on the teepad is not aiding in that way.

would be curious to see if the rules committee feels differently

 

[TheOtherBill]

Can someone explain in detail the 'Fajkus Incident'? Was it something about her bag in front of her lie? How is that a directional aid?

 

[robdeforge]

Can someone explain in detail the 'Fajkus Incident'? Was it something about her bag in front of her lie? How is that a directional aid?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3620775&postcount=248

not sure if there is more detail than that out there

 

[BrotherDave]

I thought this looked familiar. We didn't seem to come to much consensus on this in my stupid related thread: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125753&highlight=mini+tee

I've actually played with a guy that did something similar to this. He was red/green colorblind and on tees that were just spray painted lines on grass, he would put a disc down at the edge so he could tell where the tee ended so he wouldn't foot fault. So there's another wrinkle to this vague rule interpretation.

 

[txmxer]

The issue is an unfair advantage. It's a dumb penalty and I think one could easily argue the front of the tee box is the line and Tee box throws are unique because you can throw from anywhere behind the line where as shots after that are much more explicit about foot placement of a throw.

Regardless, Jerm can figure out where to put his foot without the mini and it's a non-issue.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I thought this looked familiar. We didn't seem to come to much consensus on this in my stupid related thread: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125753&highlight=mini+tee

I've actually played with a guy that did something similar to this. He was red/green colorblind and on tees that were just spray painted lines on grass, he would put a disc down at the edge so he could tell where the tee ended so he wouldn't foot fault. So there's another wrinkle to this vague rule interpretation.

I think the distinction would be whether:

A) the mini is being used as a directional aid to assist the player as to where they want to throw (illegal).

B) establishing a lie that the player would be allowed to legally throw from anyway (legal).

It's simply being used to say "release the disc from here," ...which is a mini's reason for being in the first place.

1) Should it matter if you're using it in the fairway or on the tee?

2) If it's illegal to use on a tee shot because it's "a directional aid," why wouldn't it be an illegal directional aid on the rest of the course?

 

[Jugular]

I think the distinction would be whether:

A) the mini is being used as a directional aid to assist the player as to where they want to throw (illegal).

B) establishing a lie that the player would be allowed to legally throw from anyway (legal).

It's simply being used to say "release the disc from here," ...which is a mini's reason for being in the first place.

1) Should it matter if you're using it in the fairway or on the tee?

2) If it's illegal to use on a tee shot because it's "a directional aid," why wouldn't it be an illegal directional aid on the rest of the course?

Nicely put BNM, I think this might be a nice QnA in the rulebook if its ever clarified which is legal, it seems to me it should be legal for this purpose.
As a hypothetical, if I had a mini made/printed with some lines on it representing how far my typical hyzer hyzers from right to left on flat ground and I placed the mini otherwise legally but in such a way that those lines had meaning to me, that would be a directional aid, right? And therefore illegal, so if I made that known rather than it just being part of a pretty pattern on my disc I could be penalised?

 

[Meillo]

How can anything be a directional aid if it's right where you throw? For aiding your direction it needs to be away from you. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about directional aid in this case.

Putting the towel down is legal. That's easy. It shouldn't matter if you step on the towel or not. As it is right where you are, it cannot aid your direction.

The mini has a special purpose in disc golf, i.e. marking your lie. The questions are if you can use it in any other ways (as an auxilliary item) or if you could mark something on an already established lie (the teebox). I don't know the reasons well enough, but would rather say no.

Interesting is if I could place or not brush away loose leaves and twigs on the teepad but don't step on them.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Maybe I need to watch the video again, to pay attention to Uli's demeanor, facial expression.
I wonder if Uli was just jerking Jerm's chain.

 

[Jugular]

How can anything be a directional aid if it's right where you throw? For aiding your direction it needs to be away from you. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about directional aid in this case.

Putting the towel down is legal. That's easy. It shouldn't matter if you step on the towel or not. As it is right where you are, it cannot aid your direction.

The mini has a special purpose in disc golf, i.e. marking your lie. The questions are if you can use it in any other ways (as an auxilliary item) or if you could mark something on an already established lie (the teebox). I don't know the reasons well enough, but would rather say no.

Interesting is if I could place or not brush away loose leaves and twigs on the teepad but don't step on them.

See my example directly above. If I know that I get the best results if I throw 7 degrees to the right of my intended final lie with a certain disc, having something show me what 7 degrees away looks like I can line that up using markings on a mini and therefore adjust my runup and aim to hit that angle. Surely that meets the definition of a directional aid?

 

[rocthecourse]

How can anything be a directional aid if it's right where you throw? For aiding your direction it needs to be away from you. To me it doesn't make sense to talk about directional aid in this case.

To play devil's advocate-

If you have a long teepad you could place a mini at the front of the teepad and throw from the back of the teepad and it would be directional.

Even on shorter pads the mini would give you a direction for your run up which would have some affect on the direction of your throw. The rules don't say how much of a help the directional aid needs to be, just that the use of one is illegal.

What if someone what's to draw lines on the teepad with sidewalk chalk, would that be legal too?

 

[Meillo]

And if I put a 3mx2m towel with lines and angles or mini-sized dots on the teepad?

The rules say:

A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:

A player may move casual obstacles that are partially or completely on the lie or in the stance area, regardless of whether they extend in front of or behind the lie. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.

As it says ``move'' and not ``remove'', I can rearrange the leaves, sand, stones on the teepad ...

The important aspect is the intend to use it as direction aid, which is not allowed. Big Jerm did not want to use it as direction aid but as a foot placement aid to avoid the dip at the front. That's much like towels for grip aid. Both could be seen as measures for health safety. There's a thin line between these. What the intend is and what it actually aids are also difficult to find out. A marker, as a small sized object is much more useful to aid directions than a large sized object as a towel. But a small long towel in the direction of play helps for direction as well ... It depends much on the situation, I'd say.


I agree with you now that the location ``right where you throw'' makes no difference. It directs your run-up, no matter if you cannot aim with it in the moment of the throw.

 

[DiscFifty]

I would think it's pretty clear that "directional aid" means aiding in the direction of a thrown disc, i.e. what lisa fajkus did. placing a mini on the teepad is not aiding in that way.

would be curious to see if the rules committee feels differently

"A) the mini is being used as a directional aid to assist the player as to where they want to throw (illegal)."

If someone places a mini on the tee pad to assist where (or where not) to place their feet it certainly has the derivative effect of helping with their aim, intentional or not. So I don't see how this can not be a rules violation.

 

[txmxer]

Beyond the tee box, you are required to mark your lie in a certain manner.

On the tee box you can throw from the right side, left side, front, back, etc.

If a mini on the fairway is not a directional aid and there are rules about foot placement associated with where the lie marker sits, then why would it be illegal on the tee pad as long as the player follows the rules related to the lie marker? If Jerm places his mini on the right side of the box and throws from the left, then it's a foot fault. As long as his plant foot is compliant with lie marker rules, seems a non-issue tome. Basically, the player has confined the throw to additional rules that normally do not apply on the tee box.

OTOH, the violation in the FPO sounds like the player put the bag some distance in front of the lie creating a visual cue for direction.

 

[Meillo]

If a mini on the fairway is not a directional aid and there are rules about foot placement associated with where the lie marker sits, then why would it be illegal on the tee pad as long as the player follows the rules related to the lie marker? If Jerm places his mini on the right side of the box and throws from the left, then it's a foot fault. As long as his plant foot is compliant with lie marker rules, seems a non-issue tome. Basically, the player has confined the throw to additional rules that normally do not apply on the tee box.

Without further additions to the rules I find it difficult to interprete it this way. It is a generally sensible way the rules could take but it would need mentioning in the rules. Currently there teebox is a lie that cannot be changed by the player. Also it has different rules: You must not have contact outside of the teebox when you throw, whereas you can have contact outside of your lie on any other throws. If you place the marker on the edge of the teebox would you then be able to place one foot behind the marker and one besides the teebox? I don't think this interpretation path makes the rules simpler. A marker on the teebox (if allowed at all) should not be able to change the lie in any way. Thus if it would be allowed to place a marker on the teebox you could place your foot anywhere, without the marker. However, no markers on the teebox probably is the better way to go. Would be nice to clarify that in the rules/FAQs.

 

[wolfhaley]

They should just fix that obnoxious rut on the front of the tee pad. Level that bitch out. To me what is shocking is the lack of unity in tee pad equity on these courses they play. He's complaining about the giant rut where you'd plant. And he's not wrong either.

Jerm also memtions at a different point, that he doesn't need a run up, it just looks cool. If anything, I think tee pads/areas need more work than the baskets. The teeing surfaces are all over the damn place. Block/brick pads look nice but they're not.

 

[txmxer]

Without further additions to the rules I find it difficult to interprete it this way. It is a generally sensible way the rules could take but it would need mentioning in the rules. Currently there teebox is a lie that cannot be changed by the player. Also it has different rules: You must not have contact outside of the teebox when you throw, whereas you can have contact outside of your lie on any other throws. If you place the marker on the edge of the teebox would you then be able to place one foot behind the marker and one besides the teebox? I don't think this interpretation path makes the rules simpler. A marker on the teebox (if allowed at all) should not be able to change the lie in any way. Thus if it would be allowed to place a marker on the teebox you could place your foot anywhere, without the marker. However, no markers on the teebox probably is the better way to go. Would be nice to clarify that in the rules/FAQs.

Any where else, your lie is an 11" circle. How can the tee pad be your lie? They are two completely different scenarios.

I suppose if you define it as the limit of where you can place your feet on a throw ?

And we know that pros are often allowed to throw from the sides. Big run ups from off the tee pad, etc.

Ultimately the rules don't truly address the issue. I don't believe that a mini placed directly in front of your plant foot offers any directional aid which would make the issue moot IMO.

WOLF has good point that the tee pad should be fixed in general, but particularly for a pro event. But then there is economic reality.

Sports are generally considered fair as long as everyone plays by the same rules.

 

[txmxer]

I had a related thought—frequently players are allowed to throw from the side of the tee box. This is marked by flags or other means.

If a player were to place a mini in the dirt along the line of the flags to prevent a foot fault, would this be a violation?

I suspect most will say yes, but I think this whole thread is a gray area and not well addressed in the rule book.