Player's lie verification

[geoloseth]

Here is a new scenario that happened at a tournament today. It was very technical course with extremely thick rough off of the fairways. Player A throws a shot up and over, wind carries it off to the right of the fairway - so far that it was almost in the rough of a different fairway. Everyone else tees off. As players are getting to their lies Player A goes ahead by himself to try and find his disc (he threw further than a few others and was not away). Player A plays out of the rough and states to the group that he found his disc, since he went ahead of everyone no other players could verify. Play continues as normal. Several holes later a separate group comes up to Player A and says they found his disc in the woods. This was the same disc that he threw earlier and claimed that he found and played from.

Since no other player could verify that Player A threw from his correct lie from deep in the woods (again he went of ahead while players that were away were still throwing) and two of the other players on that card left the course after the round and before the card could be turned in - only the 4th player could relay this information to the TD. What would be the call? Misplay of the hole (didn't play from his lie)? Is it a moot point because there is no one to second the events?

I know that if a player marks a lie that could be out of bounds and throws before anyone can verify the state of the throw (doesn't give anyone a chance to see the lie) then it is considered out of bounds. Does that same principle apply here?

 

[Scared_Discless]

Maybe he played from his lie and left his disc on the ground or dropped it.

 

[markmcc]

Maybe he played from his lie and left his disc on the ground or dropped it.

That was my first thought. Did Player A offer an explanation?

 

[Thumber]

Sounds like he never found the disc, played from where he thought it should be and continued play. DQ'd.

 

[geoloseth]

I was not made aware of Player A's possible explanation to what happened. I was told that the second group found the disc in an area that would have made executing the second shot the way it was nearly impossible.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I would consider a 2-throw misplay penalty. Players couldn't confirm the lie, which for a lie near OB, means the disc will be considered OB. That establishes the precedent that players must be able to confirm a player has found his disc and is playing from there. Without confirmation, and later indication that it was not the correct lie because it's unlikely the player would have left his disc in the woods, the player played from the wrong lie and completed the hole.

 

[geoloseth]

Would you need more than one person to call/assess a possible penalty in this instance? The other players on the card did not know what rules might apply and there was no one else to confirm everything when explaining to the TD after the round.

 

[Steve West]

No one made a call. No penalty.

 

[DavidSauls]

I would consider a 2-throw misplay penalty. Players couldn't confirm the lie, which for a lie near OB, means the disc will be considered OB. That establishes the precedent that players must be able to confirm a player has found his disc and is playing from there. Without confirmation, and later indication that it was not the correct lie because it's unlikely the player would have left his disc in the woods, the player played from the wrong lie and completed the hole.

A little iffy.

If we assess strokes everytime the rest of the group doesn't check someone's lie, we'll all be scoring in triple digits. The group should check every lie, of course, not just to verify the correct lie is played, but that there isn't a stance violation. But routinely we don't, and I'm not sure of penalizing a player for the group not checking.

It's different with O.B., where the lie will be relocated.

The fact that the player's original disc was later found raises eyebrows, but doesn't mean anything. I've often thrown from behind my disc (no mini) in a really bad lie, then left my disc there.

I think if the group didn't bother to check the lie at the time, it's pretty hard to issue a penalty later.

 

[scarpfish]

Enforce the rules at the time of play. Otherwise the evidence of what happened gets a bit blurry.

 

[markmcc]

A little iffy.

I've often thrown from behind my disc (no mini) in a really bad lie, then left my disc there.

This. I am more likely to forget my disc in this case than any other as I am frustrated, have an awkward stance, and am probably jumping out to get a clear look at where my shot landed.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think it depends on whether the the player bringing this to my attention as TD was just asking about the rule in general or if they had a reason to believe there were shenanigans. If so, I would want more info on where the disc was found and if it was close to where Player A made the throw assuming that could be determined. I would also ask Player A to indicate what they remember about the situation.

 

[Steve West]

I think it depends on whether the the player bringing this to my attention as TD was just asking about the rule in general or if they had a reason to believe there were shenanigans. If so, I would want more info on where the disc was found and if it was close to where Player A made the throw assuming that could be determined. I would also ask Player A to indicate what they remember about the situation.

You're treating this as a misplay. If it were a misplay, it could be discovered after the scorecard is turned in, and would have two penalty throws.

The trouble is, it is not a misplay. The types of misplay are listed. The ones that involve throwing from the wrong lie are:

1. Incorrect Lie. The player has:
A. Teed off from a teeing area that is not the correct teeing area for the current hole; or,
B. Thrown from a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc; or,
C. Played an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds; or,
D. Thrown from a lie established by a previous throw which passed a mandatory on the wrong side.

As I read the OP, none of these apply. If anything, the player just threw from a convenient location instead of from behind the disc. That's a stance violation, no matter how far from the thrown disc.

I don't see any provision for imposing a stance violation penalty long after it may have happened.

 

[CreemCheese]

I read it as option B. Since his 2nd throw landed where it couldn't have from where the 1st disc was found. He therefore wasn't playing from a lie established by a thrown disc.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm using the closest applicable rule per 801.01A. Oversight by RC not to cover throwing from anywhere versus your lie.

 

[JC17393]

I read it as option B. Since his 2nd throw landed where it couldn't have from where the 1st disc was found. He therefore wasn't playing from a lie established by a thrown disc.

Except where the subsequent throw landed has nothing to do with anything regarding misplay. The rule states that playing from a lie "established by a disc other than the thrown disc" is a misplay. Without evidence that he played from another disc, you can't assume that he did.

The implication seems to be that when he couldn't find his disc (or he did and didn't like it), he just made up a spot to throw from. If he was caught in the act, he could be penalized for a practice throw or a stance violation, but in either case he'd have to go to the actual location of the disc (if found) to play a throw that advanced his position. Since it wasn't caught in real time, neither call would be appropriate or enforceable.

I'm with Steve West on this one, if nothing was called in real time, there's nothing that really can be done post-round. At least not without solid evidence or a confession. All I read is assumptions and guesswork in the OP, which to be fair is all he has to go on.

Lesson to be learned here is to be more vigilant of what other players in your group are doing. Like DavidSauls said, we're all guilty of being a bit lax about watching other players, especially if they're off in the rough somewhere. Perhaps we shouldn't be.

 

[coupe]

A little iffy.
If we assess strokes everytime the rest of the group doesn't check someone's lie, we'll all be scoring in triple digits. The group should check every lie, of course, not just to verify the correct lie is played, but that there isn't a stance violation. But routinely we don't, and I'm not sure of penalizing a player for the group not checking.

Except the OP is not simply an example of players FAILING to verify the lie, it's an example of NOT HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY to check the lie:

As players are getting to their lies Player A goes ahead by himself to try and find his disc (he threw further than a few others and was not away). Player A plays out of the rough and states to the group that he found his disc, since he went ahead of everyone no other players could verify.

If you're keeping score, that's two courtesy violations: advancing beyond the away player (801.04.C) and throwing out of turn (801.05.D).

1. Teed off from a teeing area that is not the correct teeing area for the current hole; or,
2. Thrown from a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc; or,
3. Played an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds; or,
4. Thrown from a lie established by a previous throw which passed a mandatory on the wrong side.

As I read the OP, none of these apply. [/QUOTE]

How is throwing from a lie not established by the thrown disc NOT a violation of 2?

I think if the group didn't bother to check the lie at the time, it's pretty hard to issue a penalty later.

Doesn't bother =/= doesn't have the opportunity. See above.

I don't see any provision for imposing a stance violation penalty long after it may have happened.

805.02 Scoring
H. After the scorecard is turned in, the total score as recorded shall stand with no appeal, except for the following circumstances:
1. Penalty throws may be assessed at whatever time the infraction is discovered until the Director declares the tournament officially over or all awards have been distributed.

 

[JC17393]

How is throwing from a lie not established by the thrown disc NOT a violation of 2?

Because you're leaving out some key words from the rule in doing so. The violation is throwing from a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc. That rule replaced the old "throwing from the wrong lie/another player's lie" rule. It's intended to cover situations in which someone plays behind or marks a lie at a disc that is not their own, not a situation in which a player picks a random spot, tosses down a mini, and throws.

 

[coupe]

Except where the subsequent throw landed has nothing to do with anything regarding misplay. The rule states that playing from a lie "established by a disc other than the thrown disc" is a misplay. Without evidence that he played from another disc, you can't assume that he did.

You can't ASSUME, but you can PRESUME based on the testimony of the second group regarding the location of the found disc, the testimony of the other players in the thrower's group regarding where the player threw from, and the refusal of the thrower to afford the other players in his group the opportunity to verify the lie before he threw.

 

[coupe]

Because you're leaving out some key words from the rule in doing so. The violation is throwing from a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc. That rule replaced the old "throwing from the wrong lie/another player's lie" rule. It's intended to cover situations in which someone plays behind or marks a lie at a disc that is not their own, not a situation in which a player picks a random spot, tosses down a mini, and throws.

The last time I checked, the marker disc, whether it be the thrown disc or a mini, was a disc that establishes the lie. Feel free to cite the rule that demonstrates that's not the case.