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Playoffs?

I understand. But you may be conflating "outcome" with "final score". That, or we have different interpretations of "outcome".

Yes, outcome is the final score. That's the game we play. The rules say: "The object of the game of disc golf is to complete a course in the fewest throws of the disc." There's nothing in there about "and secondarily meet any subordinate goals declared by the TD" or such.

Non-playoff tiebreakers are just a way to choose who to give the prize to. It's hard to think of those kind of tie breakers as in any way creating a winner when they are not part of the game.

Does any other sport use a stat from the game to declare a "winner"? All that I'm aware of either add more play or just call it a tie.
 
But I disagree on "outcome." Well, currently it's true, as you quote the rulebook, because scorecard tiebreakers aren't allowed.

Were they allowed, then it would be affecting the "outcome", the winner, and I'd cite the part of the rules that allowed it.
 
A. SOME chess tournaments (not all) use "tie-breaks" (i.e. Sonnenborn-Berger, et al) to determine a winner. Off hand, can't quickly think of any others.

B. IMO, a sudden-death playoff can't be considered another round because it's done in a 'match-play' setting (where as the tournament is stroke play). If you doubt this 1. Ask anyone who has been involved in one, B. At any time during that playoff, one player can 'conceed'...and they don't end up DNF (they get second), and C. If it was truly "total score", the person who just missed getting in the playoff might just be the winner ;) .
 
A. SOME chess tournaments (not all) use "tie-breaks" (i.e. Sonnenborn-Berger, et al) to determine a winner. Off hand, can't quickly think of any others.

B. IMO, a sudden-death playoff can't be considered another round because it's done in a 'match-play' setting (where as the tournament is stroke play). If you doubt this 1. Ask anyone who has been involved in one, B. At any time during that playoff, one player can 'conceed'...and they don't end up DNF (they get second), and C. If it was truly "total score", the person who just missed getting in the playoff might just be the winner ;) .

By that logic, rounds subsequent to a cut (e.g. final 9s) aren't rounds either. If it's a top 4 final 9 and I quit two holes in, I finish fourth, not DNF. And those that finish the 9 surely will have higher total scores than the first person who missed the cut.
 
My point exactly. A playoff is not 'another round'. A "round" has a stipulated number of holes; a SD playoff doesn't.
 
Anything can be used as a tiebreaker whether it changes the outcome or not. Just because something can be used as a tiebreaker doesn't mean it changed the outcome.

This may be the first time I have ever seen a internally false tautology. So, in your world, "anything can be used as a tiebreaker" whether it breaks the tie . . . wait for it . . . or not?

Also, your world seems to contain the possibility that something that breaks a tie, actually doesn't change the outcome from being a tie?

You seem weirdly unable to simply admit that your claim, that there was some mathematical problem with using a scorecard tiebreaker, was wrong. And, if you want to go back, you will see that you raised that in defense of a claim that a scorecard playoff using the same holes as an actual playoff could favor certain players in a way that the actual playoff would not.


No matter which arbitrary detail about the scores you choose to announce as the tie-breaker, the total scores remain the same.

And this matters why? Any tie breaker is arbitrary if you are asserting that in relation to the choice of which tiebreaker is to be used. A scorecard playoff is not arbitrary in the sense that it isn't random or based on whim. And a scorecard playoff is not mathematically problematic as you first asserted but now want to change the subject from.

Longest drive is a skill. So, by your logic, if the tie breaker is declared in advance to be the longest drive on a 213 foot hole, then the tied player who most overshot that basket is the better player.

No. There is nothing about my arguments regarding a scorecard playoff not being the same as a coin flip that can be viewed as an endorsement of a long drive contest. You are reaching nearly epic levels of logical fallacy. Surely you aren't this dumb?

A scorecard playoff simply uses data from a round that isn't used to determine the initial socre. The true flaw in your reasoning is in your failure to understand that a scorecard playoff doesn't break a tie, it prevents a tie; what would otherwise be a tie is broken during the round.


If going for a tiebreaker is inconsistent with the strategy of going for the lowest score, it is not compatible with trying to win the game and no one will try for it. If going or the tiebreaker is consistent with going for the lowest score, it does nothing to tell us more about who played better than the score already tells us.

This is a silly "analysis." An announced scorecard playoff simply adds another strategy element when playing holes that are, or may be, part of the playoff, nothing more, nothing less. As stated above, it uses data not used to determine the initial score and that data can be described as "who played better on the sequence of holes beginning with hole x (where x is the hole that begins the scorecard playoff)." If you want to lay up on hole one instead of going for it on on your drive, approach or putt, that is up to you - you know the consequences.

I like a scorecard playoff. I like it primarily because it brings a tournament to an end and it is fair (i.e., it need not favor anyone in a way that they wouldn't be favored by playing the same holes that make up the scorecard playoff). It is evident that some do not like it, and that's okay with me. I have not tried, nor will I try, to convince you or anyone else, that you or they should like a scorecard playoff. However, your claims that it is somehow mathematically invalid (which is itself the attempted invocation of nonexistent scientific authority) are becoming more and more ridiculous the more your argue against it.
 
SD playoff or just leave it as a tie, unless a SD isn't feasible, because a scorecard playoff can go to either player depending on which end the TD starts from. My example below is just 2 of my rounds on a local 9 holer, but the point us easy to see:

A
4, 4, 5, 3, 3, 5, 2, 3, 3

B
3, 4, 3, 4, 2, 6, 3, 3, 4
 
Scorecard tiebreaker less fair for players, even if holes are known, than leaving players tied or even a coin flip. It's only "time convenient" for TDs but no more convenient than leaving players tied or a coin flip. Otherwise, break the tie with some sort of skill based playoff that occurs after the final round tie.
 
For sure, sudden death playoffs are more exciting for me, as an observer. I admit, if I were personally involved, I might not like it so much.

"Okay folks, we have a tie, now we're going to count the scores from the round, hole by hole, to see who wins," isn't nearly as exciting.
 
I don't know that scorecard tiebreakers are particularly unfair, if chosen and announced in advanced, and chosen well (as sudden death holes should be).

Essentially, these holes are double-weighted. Or, at least, potentially double-weighted. The players know the stakes playing those holes.

Which is a little distasteful but, face it, many courses have holes that have a disproportionate effect on the outcome, due to the scoring spreads they produce.

I'm not a fan, but for other reasons than fairness.
 
I liken scorecard tiebreakers to something Dana White (CEO of the UFC) had posted on the wall of a training center. It was something along the lines of, "Don't leave it in the hands of the judges." The judges being those deciding the fight and essentially saying fight well enough to get a TKO or submission. To use it in our case, if you don't like the tie breaker step your game up, stop making excuses and play better.

Haven't quite decided how to handle ties outside of 1st place just yet but unless there are a lot of non first place ties I don't think the scorecard thing is the way to go.
 
Haven't quite decided how to handle ties outside of 1st place just yet but unless there are a lot of non first place ties I don't think the scorecard thing is the way to go.

Why do ties outside of first place need to be broken at all? Not dismissing the notion, just not sure I've ever heard a reason worth the effort to break the tie, at least from an official standpoint.

I'm assuming we're talking ties after all the play is over, and not tiebreaking for the purposes of card assignments or making a hard cut of the field for a semifinal or final round.
 
So here's another related question...I know the rules don't address this so I am looking to see what others do but what about a tie for third or second? I have a really awesome club member making fantastic trophies for the event out to three places in a bunch of divisions. How do others resolve ties in these spots? Cage match? Pretty sure I don't want to spend time after the tourney having playoffs for 2nd and 3rd places. I was thinking the lower PDGA number takes it but I'm not sure I guess...

Had this happen with 3 of us tied for 2nd and had trophies for 2nd and 3rd. We were all tired so we just flipped discs for the 2 trophies.
 
I'd prefer sudden death to break a tie, but wouldn't be hurt about skill competitions (CTP, a round of Finnish, who can make the shot into the knot of a tree from farthest away, whatever).

Scorecard tiebreak just seems to punish someone who catches fire later in the round (counting starts from 1) or the beginning (counting starts from 18).
 
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