Post "growing the sport" disc golf

[Steve West]

Interesting. Maybe your perspective will change once your disc golf region matures a little bit. Or maybe your metro really does have that much unused land. In MSP I cannot see a way for disc golf construction to keep up with demand. Paging Mr. Kennedy/West?

1. I have a list of at least 55 places that have expressed some interest in adding disc golf. Maybe 40 of those in the Twin Cities. I think about a dozen (2 of mine and 10 others') are coming on line in the next year. Some I thought were dead have been returning to life.

2. Fort Snelling does offer tee times on the weekend. Equal priority with the golfers. They just sent a blast email today about How to Throw a disc golf disc farther, so you might need a tee time this weekend.

3. The $30 per player is not far off from what it would cost to maintain a course that was exclusively disc golf. Actually more.

4. There's plenty of open land, it's just being used for other things. As disc golf moves up the list of desired amenities, more will become available. Even in a sea of concrete like Chicago, think about what will happen when Cook County decides to add disc golf.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

Yea. I suppose I can write the bugs off as typical MN.

I'd hate to see something like the pond on hole 6/7 go away. Truly a great par 4 as far as design is concerned.

I only get to BRP once a year but in the past 4 years its unreal how crowded its gotten. What felt like a 'hidden gem' for only the most hardcore of hardcore has been filled up with your typical suburban redneck beer-swilling chucker.

Sad. Tragic. #GrowTheSport

Yeah, BRP and VQ are basically right in the middle of a Redneck Sanctuary.

Though to be fair, Acorn, Bryant, etc get crowded also.

#ShrinkTheSport

 

[DanJon]

I think that with expansion/growth, you will always have the easily accessible courses that are crowded.

However you can balance that out with courses outside of the metro areas that are pay-to-play.

Those courses can also be made more challenging so you won't have the chuckers.

 

[DavidSauls]

3. The $30 per player is not far off from what it would cost to maintain a course that was exclusively disc golf. Actually more.

Say, what? Well, I guess it depends on attendance.

 

[JTacoma03]

I think the concerns are real, a little on the extreme side of things, but legit nonetheless.

The reason I say it's extreme is because it suffers from the same fatal flaw as "OMG ESPN NOW WE'VE MADE IT" - it forgets the baby steps and milestones we have to hit to scale to that size.

Some thoughts related to that:
- If disc golf gets that big, those scary "$30 greens fees" that are being discussed would be a clubhouse setup with a bar/restaurant/pro shop/etc. Even out here in the Bay Area (the mecca of overcharging) you can get rounds at legit golf courses for $30-50.
- This would still only be the upper echelon of courses, beautifully manicured, etc. There will also be the middle ground between that and free - the equivalent of the "muni" golf course - $10-20 greens fees, with less amenities, but nicer than what we are dealing with on average now.
- There will still be free courses, the advantages of disc golf to parks departments won't change, and yes those courses will get more crowded - but then parks depts. will build more disc golf courses in favor of other activities - especially with the marquee metric they love "cost per user" being the best of pretty much anything you could do outside of TetherBall


I mean, let's be real here, they were having these same discussions about golf when it was in its infancy. I think too many times as disc golfers we get way ahead of ourselves in these discussions. The game is still an infant - and the one true maxim is that necessity is the mother of all invention (or maybe Innovation is the better word here, no pun intended). When those problems arise, people will devise solutions to maintain profitability (and remember, that overcrowding and reduced enjoyment hampers profit growth - so that problem will be addressed too).


I just fully disagree with the "stay fringe or the game will suck" mentality. I mean P2P is growing, and it's not killing the free public courses like people used to predict...

 

[Peterb]

I think the concerns are real, a little on the extreme side of things, but legit nonetheless.

The reason I say it's extreme is because it suffers from the same fatal flaw as "OMG ESPN NOW WE'VE MADE IT" - it forgets the baby steps and milestones we have to hit to scale to that size.

Some thoughts related to that:
- If disc golf gets that big, those scary "$30 greens fees" that are being discussed would be a clubhouse setup with a bar/restaurant/pro shop/etc. Even out here in the Bay Area (the mecca of overcharging) you can get rounds at legit golf courses for $30-50.
- This would still only be the upper echelon of courses, beautifully manicured, etc. There will also be the middle ground between that and free - the equivalent of the "muni" golf course - $10-20 greens fees, with less amenities, but nicer than what we are dealing with on average now.
- There will still be free courses, the advantages of disc golf to parks departments won't change, and yes those courses will get more crowded - but then parks depts. will build more disc golf courses in favor of other activities - especially with the marquee metric they love "cost per user" being the best of pretty much anything you could do outside of TetherBall


I mean, let's be real here, they were having these same discussions about golf when it was in its infancy. I think too many times as disc golfers we get way ahead of ourselves in these discussions. The game is still an infant - and the one true maxim is that necessity is the mother of all invention (or maybe Innovation is the better word here, no pun intended). When those problems arise, people will devise solutions to maintain profitability (and remember, that overcrowding and reduced enjoyment hampers profit growth - so that problem will be addressed too).


I just fully disagree with the "stay fringe or the game will suck" mentality. I mean P2P is growing, and it's not killing the free public courses like people used to predict...

100% spot on. Emerald Hills is a great example of an underused par 3 golf course that's recently added disc golf in a metro area with a relative paucity of disc golf courses. But it's not like the introduction of a pay to play has killed free public courses here. Those will always be around. It's just nice to have somewhere I can get a tee time and not have to deal with huge crowds of chuckers. #Optionsaregood

 

[Kutueh]

In my opinion, we need to start young and put small courses at schools and get DG into PE classes. Once the kids get interested in something, so will the parents. I would love to see the sport grow a ton, but it shouldn't come with the problems of ball golf

we had it in my PE class, but instead of baskets it was through hoops. kinda like playing quidditch in harry potter.

 

[discRabbit]

Do I really want to pay $30 for a tediously paced 3 hour round of disc golf? Do you? Is there an alternative that avoids this problem?

No, they (we) don't but nobody seems to understand the implications of "grow the sport"... :wall:

 

[DanJon]

It's great when people invent problems in their head, complain about the possible implications and then go looking for solutions to them.

Human nature I guess.

 

[RistoS]

3. The $30 per player is not far off from what it would cost to maintain a course that was exclusively disc golf. Actually more.

Our local pay-to-play course, exclusively for disc golf, currently charges 4 euros for a day ticket (50 euros for season). It just started running this year so we'll see where the prices will develop, but it needs to be noted that tickets are not the only source of income a private course may have.

 

[zendragon]

Lots of good points. I'll comment on a few.

First, because of how fringe the course still is, the most played course in my area, which regularly backs up in the middle of the day on a weekday, is being cut in half in order to install a dog park. This happened because the residents of the city voted for a dog park over a year ago. It didn't matter to the city council how popular the course was, their residents wanted a dog park. This would be harder to do if we "made it". This is the second time a course has been removed, shortened, and redesigned in the last year due to other parks decisions. Yes, I would pay in order to keep those courses intact.

Second, cost will depend on the course, and will scale accordingly. The owners of Selah told us they spend 40 hours a week just mowing the course, let alone the other maintenance. They offset the cost in other ways though, with cabin/room rentals for those staying there, and golf cart rentals for anyone playing.

Finally, I don't think anyone considered the other benefits of growing then sport here of the lift in DG companies. We now have a nearly oversaturation of discs, but each person has their favorite. We also have all kinds of innovation in bags, like UPD's bags. We've added new tools like the disc gator. We're getting a lot better production in videos now, which not everyone watches, but several of us enjoy. What else can we add as we grow? How much better can our products be? I don't think we've peaked yet.

 

[jjtwinnova]

I don't think people realize the difference between growing the sport and growing the game. Growing the sport is getting people to play in leagues and tournaments and having them participate in local clubs and follow professional disc golf, or a choice of the above. Growing the game is getting 17 year old stoners to grab a drawstring bag and a champion boss and going out to the course. If we had more people playing the sport, we will be fine and everything will be just great. If we have too many gamers then the sport will be in jeapordy. Of course if it became mostly pay to play and tee times, many of the gamers will no longer show interest. However, this could also drive some sporters away as well. Also, many courses in public parks don't want and can't handle the excessive traffic that follows the expansion of disc golf.

 

[rickles]

Redneck sanctuary? I grew up there and wouldn't change it for the city slicker life...thats the sad life IMO, never seeing stars even...just light pollution. Can you put a whole 18 hole course on your property in the City? Didn't think so. Well dang, you know what...us rednecks gave you a course like BRP to play even. Good thing some of us are nice and not the people you sterotyped us as.

Anyways, seems like too much whining on here especially about BRP. This is the arguably the best course in the state, and you're complaining about people and bugs. Looks like you beat yourself before you even threw...good luck at a tourney if you can't handle that.

 

[Anon]

Redneck sanctuary? I grew up there and wouldn't change it for the city slicker life...thats the sad life IMO, never seeing stars even...just light pollution. Can you put a whole 18 hole course on your property in the City? Didn't think so. Well dang, you know what...us rednecks gave you a course like BRP to play even. Good thing some of us are nice and not the people you sterotyped us as.

Anyways, seems like too much whining on here especially about BRP. This is the arguably the best course in the state, and you're complaining about people and bugs. Looks like you beat yourself before you even threw...good luck at a tourney if you can't handle that.

No need to get all butthurt because somebody called Anoka county the sticks.

And who said a thing about tournament play?

You probably aren't the issue at BRP but there are PLENTY of typical rednecks acting like fools all over that property these days. If you don't think thats a detriment to the game and the experience that USED to be BRP... I guess I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I didn't know BRP was in blaine. :|

Play nice guys. We are so Fing lucky in the twin cities. Ill slap you all with my disC. Courses are not that crowed at all. Played many lately and been one of the few players out there.

****s been this way for a few seasons now sooooo?

 

[ThrowBot]

The OP seems to have an implicit premise that "growing the sport" means more players but not proportionate gains in infrastructure. To me, one of the main benefits of 'sport growth' is better infrastructure. More courses, bigger courses, better courses, more variety of courses...that's the growth that I want to see.

Obviously this is all dependent on the area in which you live. It sounds like the Twin Cities might very well be saturated with courses, and those courses (at least the good ones?) are saturated with players. That's not the case where I live, so it's tough for me to buy into the doom-and-gloom outlook being espoused by some. I'm not saying it's incorrect, it just doesn't apply where I live.

FWIW, I do understand the problems of course overcrowding. I've started to hope for bad weather on our park league days because it keeps the riff-raff off the course and improves our pace of play. On the other hand, I know that those same chuckers are patronizing the local disc shops that sponsor our tournaments...that's the yin and yang of a burgeoning rec frolf scene.

 

[Texconsinite]

Yes. You ARE lucky in the Twin Cities. The choice of quality courses is amazing!! and the weather is great all summer, and long days. I used to take the bus from downtown after work, and still get two rounds in at Acorn before dark, even as crowded as it gets.

As the sport grows, things will no doubt change, but what certainly will change is CHOICES. As courses get more crowded, and new courses get introduced, we will have more choices. A previous poster make a good distinction between growing the game and growing the sport. As high end/muni style P2P courses become more of a thing, and those become more crowded too, I think how we play DG will change.

For those who are more particular, don't like waiting behind crowds of noobs, I think more organized play like leagues or tournaments will become more attractive, because if a private course has a great enough demand for leagues, then they might start having nights that are just for leagues, separating the casual player from the ones who want to play more organized.

So yes this mean you might not be able to enjoy the local course to yourself at peak times like you did in the past, but now you have more options because of all those players.

I also think courses will have a greater variety, with more of a clear separation between the Gold champ level courses and the casual red courses. Right now the sport is still at the stage of trying to play temp layouts to turn the best available courses into Gold courses for some of the major tournaments, because the everyday demand isnt great enough from people who want to play champ layouts ALL THE TIME.

I'm glad Steve West chimed in about the costs to run a strictly Disc golf course. Right now many of the Private courses are labors of love by property owners who's primary source of income is something else. Until demand is such that its easier to be profitable opening strictly a DG course and people are willing to pay more for such a place (more of the country club idea of bar, restaurant, pro-shop, etc) then we will see crowds of ppl playing public free/P2P or whats available. Lets not forget that alot of what we enjoy now, is on the backs of lots of volunteers and donations, and at a certain point that won't be sustainable any more (see Madison and Milwaukee, WI going P2P), but with for-profit business models comes even cleaner/nicer/more challenging courses for those us willing to pay for them. It also opens up more options for public land that Disc golf may never have had access to in the past, and Municipalities and neighborhoods seeing it as more of a selling point/amenity, like running trails and tennis courts.

I'm all for growing the sport, even though there will be "growing pains" including more crowds on the courses. Worth it to have more of everything IMO.

 

[JTacoma03]

The OP seems to have an implicit premise that "growing the sport" means more players but not proportionate gains in infrastructure. To me, one of the main benefits of 'sport growth' is better infrastructure. More courses, bigger courses, better courses, more variety of courses...that's the growth that I want to see.

A succinct summary of what I was trying to get across in my rambling post. 100% agree.

On a personal note, this is what I'm really trying to help with in my DiscGolfPark projects...creating better and 'future-ready' disc golf infrastructure in communities.

One huge piece that's rarely talked about with course overcrowding is BAD design. The local who fancies design and makes "cool holes" hurts our sport in the long term, though it may help in the short term, if he or she is not very careful to consider what a course looks like with 18 groups on the course and 4-5 more in the queue.

 

[ThrowBot]

One huge piece that's rarely talked about with course overcrowding is BAD design. The local who fancies design and makes "cool holes" hurts our sport in the long term, though it may help in the short term, if he or she is not very careful to consider what a course looks like with 18 groups on the course and 4-5 more in the queue.

Interesting point, can you expand on this with some course design principles that help to minimize overcrowding concerns?

To me it seems like the same things that promote good course flow (mandos to protect adjacent holes, lack of cross-overs/intersections) would also alleviate some overcrowding issues.

Also, a good warm-up area and plenty of seating near the start of the course are always nice. At our local park course there's a regular problem when people practice putting on the 9th pin...sometimes getting in the way of other groups trying to finish a round. We've been working with the city to fix this by installing a practice basket.

 

[discRabbit]

The OP seems to have an implicit premise that "growing the sport" means more players but not proportionate gains in infrastructure. To me, one of the main benefits of 'sport growth' is better infrastructure. More courses, bigger courses, better courses, more variety of courses...that's the growth that I want to see.

Explain this point to people who live in saturated cities (e.g., NY). Where are you going to put these "bigger and better courses"?

You can imagine these benefits all you want, but that doesn't mean it will be so.