Putting Plastic

[Brodysseus]

Just putt with whatever is comfortable.

#stickputts

 

[Dan Ensor]

Do you think the target area gained on the pro side is more or less than the target area lost on the weak side with an extra grippy putter?

DGR is back online. So here's the thread highlights (imo):

figured i'd post this on its own topic.

Ok, I have an unrelated questions (unrelated to the topic although related to my joke) for Blake T, seeing as he is a scientific sort of guy. Does any kind of plastic (or hardness of plastic) actually stick to the chains better? And does a soft or hard putter have a greater chance of bouncing off the post and out of the basket?

well, my philosophy on it is this:
i don't want a putter that will "grip" chain. i don't want a putter that behaves viscous against chain.

if you rate softness on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being a blowfly and 1 being one of those as hard as porcelain firm wizards, i would favor putters in the 4-6 range.

if you rate grippiness on a scale of 1 to 10, with a 10 being a blowfly and 1 being one of the old vinylish elite z putt'rs, i would favor putters in the 4-6 range.

putters that are soft/grippy will pick up an extra 2" or so on the high right side but at the same time, anything above 6" above the basket that hits even 1/4" left of the center of the pole will have a tendency to grip and spin out.

putters that are too stiff/slick will have a great tendency to cut through and/or riccochet/redirect on chain contact.

ideally, the putters that will have the greatest makeable surface area on a basket are ones that are of a softness and grippiness that will slow down upon chain contact but will simply "spin in place" against the chains while the friction against the chains will slow down the spin without having the spin cause the putter to move laterally against the chains. with these types of putters, fairly extreme left/right putts within 6" of the top of the basket will kick downards and tend to stay in. putts that miss slightly left will tend to drop down rather than spin out. you lose a bit on the high right but pick up enough around the pole to more than cancel that out.

in terms of bouncing off the pole, a super stiff putter has a higher chance of bouncing off pole than a less stiff putter. but a super soft putter has a higher chance of spinning off the pole when it hits. i recommend a happy medium.

i made a picture contrasting a medium stiffness medium grip putter on the left vs. a really soft high grip putter on the right. the color represents an approximation of the makeable surface area.

basically, you can think of it being like a kc aviar vs. jk aviar, hard magnet vs. soft magnet, hard soft wizard vs. soft sss wizard, etc.

Ok, I have an unrelated questions (unrelated to the topic although related to my joke) for Blake T, seeing as he is a scientific sort of guy. Does any kind of plastic (or hardness of plastic) actually stick to the chains better? And does a soft or hard putter have a greater chance of bouncing off the post and out of the basket?

well, my philosophy on it is this...

I agree entirely with everything Blake said. If you want to add a little more science-yness to it, here goes...

You initially have a putter traveling with speed v and mass m. Also, the disc has a moment of inertia I and spin rate w. The kinetic energy of the putter is:

Ek=1/2(m*v*v + I*w*w)

After the disc comes to rest in the basket, and all of the chains have stopped moving, v=w=0. According to the law of conservation of energy, Ek is transformed into another kind of energy, because the disc no longer has any kinetic energy. Where does the energy go? It goes into what we like to call "dissipation." Dissipation turns mechanical energy into heat energy by raising the temperature of the substances involved in the interactions with the body that had kinetic energy to begin. If all these bodies (basket+chains+disc+surrounding air) have a collective heat capacity C, then the average temperature of these things after the disc comes to rest is increased by Ek/C.

Friction, like that between a chain and a disc, can be a form of dissipation. But only if it is the right kind of friction. There is static friction, which is when two object's contact areas are stuck together. And then there is dynamic friction, when there is relative motion at the contact interface. Friction dissipation only happens when there is relative motion (i.e., sliding) between the two contact areas, i.e., for dynamic friction. If they are stuck together, with no sliding (static friction), then there is no dissipation.

Plastic that is overly grippy tends to promote static friction, without sliding. This isn't good, because it will not dissipate the disc's kinetic energy. Plastic that is overly smooth will slide at the interface, but there will be little resistance force between it and the chains, so that even though there will be dissipation it will be small. The "sweet spot" is right in the middle: grippy enough to exert resistance to sliding, but not so grippy that there is no sliding whatsoever. I.e., 4-6 on Blake's putter grippiness scale.

The most important form of friction in a chain basket is the friction between the links of the chains. This is why it is a great disc stopper. It is admittedly crude (other threads can be perused for more info on why that is the case), but the contacts between links of a chain seem to provide enough dissipation to catch a well-thrown disc. If you want a basket to catch discs better, then figure out a way to get more friction dissipation between the links.

cool. any mr. wizard-esque comments on soft putter (with lots of flex on impact) vs. stiffer putter?

it would be interesting to see which dominates, the grippiness of the plastic failing to dissipate or the bending on impact of a soft disc...

personally i prefer discs that flex a tiny bit but not much because i find floppier discs tend to flex and recoil before they leave my hand... which i figure cancels out any benefit in terms of chain interaction because it's harder to get a consistent release.

When a continuous body deforms, there are two kinds of response: elastic and plastic. Elastic deformation is recoverable, i.e., if you bend it, the body will bounce back to its original shape. Plastic deformation is permanent, i.e., if you bend it it will stay bent and not return to its previous form. Elastic deformation is accompanied by very very little dissipation. Plastic deformation is all dissipation. So the perfect putter character is one that you can only throw once, it'll be all mashed the first time it hits the chains.

Of course, we don't use plastic deformation one-use disposable putters, so there will be little dissipation from that property of the putter. The key then is time scale. A more floppy putter will rebound slower than a more stiff putter after hitting something. If the floppy putter rebounds back to its original shape on a time scale that is similar to half the natural period of the pendulum motion of the chains, then the rebound of the putter shape will add to the back force of the chains swinging back from the initial impact, and may well help to push the disc backwards and make it less likely to drop in the basket.

So a stiffer putter seems better, with middle-of-the-road friction. Of course, we can't rule out the possibility that a putter can be designed which has properties that increase the dissipation in the chains, but I can't think of a straightforward way to do that.

Another quick thought with respect to stickiness of the putter: you don't want the disc to spend too much time stuck against the chains, you want it to drop, before it has the opportunity to swing back out. This is another reason to avoid super sticky rubbery putters.

I guess somebody should tell Vibram. :lol:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17218

 

[sumo21]

I like something medium-soft, like my JK Aviar's.

 

[The Last DJ]

Interesting stuff here. My buddy just hooked me up with a firm Wizard for making him a custom dye last week. It's much more solid than the SS or RFF putters I'm used to throwing (feels like G9i or Med blend but unlabeled). I wanted to try it out this weekend but had some low expectations as I was expecting chain-outs and roll-aways to happen. The putter did NOT meet these expectations.

For some reason, I was putting lights-out. Everything inside the circle went in. Even longer shots outside of 50' and a few jumpers were good and no extra strokes were caused by the firm plastic. I can't say that a couple casual rounds over the weekend will make me change my putter but this is a consideration. I just feel like I should keep the softer blends in the bag.

I use Wizards and Magics and have been consistently putting with those two molds for a few years now. In my experience, the softer blends tend to be a tick less stable and have the ability to sit down where they land. This is especially critical playing locally in West Virginia, Ohio, and Kentucky where greens are fast and precarious basket placements are common. I might end up using a firm plastic for inside the circle and then save my softer blends for finesse shots and approaching baskets that are close to OB or on an incline...

 

[DiscDraft]

I use hard putters for push putts and soft ones for spin putts. Hard plastic at low speeds is less likely to get knocked out, and soft plastic at high speeds is less likely to spit. All just based on my experience.

 

[Shamis]

I go back and forth, but I seem to be settling into a preference for stiff putters. I do notice deviations in flight based on grip pressure with very soft putters, but more importantly I think I've actually had more soft putters bounce out of the basket than stiff putters. Particularly with Vibram. I used to love the summit, but I watched my disc bounce off the pole in the center of the basket one too many times. However, I think the bouncing properties of the vibram putters may be unique to the rubber they use. I haven't seen that much with normal soft putters.

Have been using zero hard Pure's mostly for the last year or so. They do pretty well, and are grippy. I am currently experimenting with a 350G PA3, and so far I'm loving it. It's stiff, but the surface is so sticky I think it actually grips the chains better. Seems to have a very consistent flight path and is lower speed than the Pure. I'll probably keep the Pure for long range putts as it has more glide.

I do agree that if there is a chance for a disastrous roll near the basket soft putters are more likely to stay put when they land.

 

[Ender175]

The Nova actually satisfies a lot of those desirable qualities.
Firm flight plate for consistent release.
Some flex to dissipate energy, plus the two different materials seem to really deaden impacts (and make a really weird impact noise)
I've been periodically cleaning the rubber rims as they get tarred up to maximize grip and aiming pro side. After maple hill next weekend I'll try letting them grime into that 4-6 sweet spot and aiming closer to center and see if my make zone actually gets noticeably bigger.

 

[ru4por]

He can putt with stiff putters all he wishes. When the Omega SS came on the market and I got on in hand to try, I got rid of my stiff putters and never looked back. The floppy putter eliminated a lot of washouts and almost all of the rollaways when I doinked.

I wince when watching tournament video and see rollaways and such that likely wouldn't have happened with a floppy putter.

^^^^^A Soft Magnet spin putter agrees with this ^^^^^
:thmbup::thmbup:

 

[All Day]

I've evolved into stiff organic Wizards, but they still have a tacky, grippy surface. Best of both worlds IMO.