Reachback timing?

[Icarus]

I've noticed on that most rh pros tend to reach back when their right foot is traveling forward for their last step in their x-step, and that the maximum reach is achieved when the front foot hits. This, of course, immediately reverses as they start the throw, so they are never holding the reach back at all.

I, on the other hand, finish reaching back right after my back foot is planted in the x-step and hold it there while my front foot is still traveling (probably 0.5 seconds of hold while the pros seem to have no hold at all). It feels very natural, and lets me focus on disc release and loading my front foot for the throw.

Since I've noticed this, though, I've watched the timing on many videos for pros and notice that they are very consistent with this timing.

I don't have any video right now, but has anyone seen a similar throwing style, and will this be an impairment to my throwing?

 

[Nenja]

I corrected this a few months agoo and i really feel that it gave me consistency.
My timing is for sure not always as perfect as the pros but to eliminate hesitation also should maximise momentum in the weight shift?

 

[F. Howl]

I suffer from a pre-cocked reachback. I'm not sure, but I suspect that it could limit distance potential? Maybe because it's less fluid? Don't know, and am also interested in some critiques of that style.

I developed it trying to correct a timing issue I had. First and only instruction my friends and I got, was this tweaked out regular at Sylmar's Veterans. The short lesson came with a "nip to nip, let it rip" mnemonic, but nothing on footwork, so during my formative years of disc golfing I would start my throw towards the very end of my stride instead of fully planting first. Quit for a long while, came back to the sport with a plethora of youtube coverage and tutorials, and realized my form flaw, only to replace it with an early reachback.

Having it pre-loaded feels really natural to me though, and allows me to get my plantfoot down and focus on the hip turn to the follow through. I feel it improves my consistency, since there is less movement right before the meat of the drive. I've been meaning to do some fieldwork to experiment with the conventional throw, but with two little kids I don't get enough course time to start messing with something that ain't broke.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

I've been really working on this myself. I've seen a few pros keep the disc kind of cocked in to their core until they have that front foot almost or all the way down. I've been trying to keep the oriented nose down just out in front of my solar plexus for longer and focus on putting it out in front of me as apposwd to rounding during reach back.

I have seen significant improvement since I focused on this part of the throw, though I don't get it right every time yet.

 

[F.Luke]

The pros are not "reaching back" per se. The arm straightens out because the disc and hand haven't started accelerating forward yet.

Thinking you have to reach back against your forward momentum is a recipe for bad timing.

 

[Icarus]

F.Luke:

I disagree. They definitely reach back. If it were simply the "arm straightening because they haven't started the throw", then there would be no shoulder rotation to assist in the throw (because it would be all momentum-based).

Besides, you are traveling at the same speed as the disc on the run-up. There has to be a conscious movement to turn the shoulder and straighten the arm. Otherwise, an object in motion...

Perhaps we disagree on the definition of reach-back? If you see the often-used gif on the site below, every single pro reaches "maximal arm straightness" (if you don't like the term reach back) and almost immediately throws.

I'm saying my maximal arm straightness would occur when the are in the middle of the last step, probably a full 0.5 seconds before them.

gif: https://www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com/5-easy-ways-to-increase-you-backhand-disc-golf-drive-distance/

 

[sidewinder22]

The main reasons the top pros don't hit the top of the backswing until they plant the front foot are:

1. Acceleration. It keeps the disc still in place, or keeps it from starting to accelerate forward until the plant, so they can maximize forward acceleration on the disc during the throw when it matters. If your disc is already "reached back" way before you plant, then you are dragging the disc forward and accelerating it targetward early, which then limits the amount of acceleration you can add during the throw as you swing posted up on a braced front side. F=MA

2. Sequence & Rhythm. It keeps the backswing and forward swing sequenced as a smooth mirrored motion back and forth.

3. Consistency. It helps you stay forward addressed to the target longer during the x-step and turn back later at the last second into the plant. Also when you hit the top of the backswing as you plant everything becomes automatic going back forward.

McBeth No Reachback thread:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91096

Backswing vs Unfolding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjxwiN8G4F0&t=4m23s

 

[Icarus]

All three points taken, sidewinder. Although, it's more a matter of semantics about "reach back" vs "back swing". The disc stays still to the reference frame of the earth, but moves backwards with shoulder rotation, etc in the reference frame of the thrower.

I don't dispute the efficacy of that method of thinking, though. As the mind goes, the body follows.

 

[billyjacko]

As the mind goes, the body follows.

Amen to that. The mechanics of a throw started making way more sense when I started thinking of it in terms of "backswing" instead of "reach back" and "sequence" instead of "timing". With reach back, I think of punching the disc backwards. With backswing, I think of the shoulders turning the spine with tension and leverage. With timing, I always thought there was that one thing I needed to change, or do slightly earlier/later and it would make all the difference. With sequence, I realize the reason I'm doing something wrong usually has to do with something I'm doing one or two steps before it (ie the sequence is messed up not the timing of a single thing.)

As for timing the top of the backswing with the plant toes coming down, I think a lot of it has to do with maximizing the tension and leverage from the ground into the spine, shoulder and arm. You'll hear players describe it as an elongating of the throw that causes a type of slingshot effect. I don't know from a biomechanical standpoint if it's more of a feeling or an actual slingshot you get from tendons. It seems it's hard to stay leveraged with an early reach back. There are a few pros that throw pretty far with an early reach back (Josh Anton and Eric Oakley comes to mind) but the majority of them have similar sequence.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I don't have any video right now, but has anyone seen a similar throwing style, and will this be an impairment to my throwing?

What I can add to what has already been said, in my experience the early reach back is not by itself as much of an issue as all of the other parts of your X-step and torso movements that are very likely happening in conjunction, that ARE hindering your style.

Accuracy even more than power, but when you develop good form they develop together, will benefit from what you are describing as the more pro-timed reach back.

 

[Tinkles]

The main reasons the top pros don't hit the top of the backswing until they plant the front foot are:

1. Acceleration. It keeps the disc still in place, or keeps it from starting to accelerate forward until the plant, so they can maximize forward acceleration on the disc during the throw when it matters. If your disc is already "reached back" way before you plant, then you are dragging the disc forward and accelerating it targetward early, which then limits the amount of acceleration you can add during the throw as you swing posted up on a braced front side. F=MA

2. Sequence & Rhythm. It keeps the backswing and forward swing sequenced as a smooth mirrored motion back and forth.

3. Consistency. It helps you stay forward addressed to the target longer during the x-step and turn back later at the last second into the plant. Also when you hit the top of the backswing as you plant everything becomes automatic going back forward.

McBeth No Reachback thread:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91096

Backswing vs Unfolding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjxwiN8G4F0&t=4m23s

So.... how important is this timing? I was watching some coverage of McBeth and noticed that he seemed to turn much later than I do and I came searching the forums and found this thread. Im screwing around in my living room and this timing is like starting over... Reading about a swing and seeing SW22s throw makes me now see that all these guys have a backswing like Feldy. They just do it differently but are all swinging.

 

[sidewinder22]

So.... how important is this timing? I was watching some coverage of McBeth and noticed that he seemed to turn much later than I do and I came searching the forums and found this thread. Im screwing around in my living room and this timing is like starting over... Reading about a swing and seeing SW22s throw makes me now see that all these guys have a backswing like Feldy. They just do it differently but are all swinging.

Yeah everyone has the same sequence, some may hinge more than others. Timing within the sequence is an individual thing and varies with speed and anatomy and flexibility(I also think Paul is more owl than human). Timing comes from practicing with the correct sequence and reacting to gravity like pumping your legs a swing set.

 

[NEKyota]

F.Luke:

I disagree. They definitely reach back. If it were simply the "arm straightening because they haven't started the throw", then there would be no shoulder rotation to assist in the throw (because it would be all momentum-based).

Besides, you are traveling at the same speed as the disc on the run-up. There has to be a conscious movement to turn the shoulder and straighten the arm. Otherwise, an object in motion...

Perhaps we disagree on the definition of reach-back? If you see the often-used gif on the site below, every single pro reaches "maximal arm straightness" (if you don't like the term reach back) and almost immediately throws.

I'm saying my maximal arm straightness would occur when the are in the middle of the last step, probably a full 0.5 seconds before them.

gif: https://www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com/5-easy-ways-to-increase-you-backhand-disc-golf-drive-distance/

I don't disagree with fluke. McBeth has a vid telling Brodie to move around the disc.. if you notice in any slowmo vid the disc stays basically above his left foot during the x-step.. then plants his right foot(disc still over his left) and hips rotate forward and then the disc is slung with momentum.. that's why every camera angle from behind Paul it looks like his disc momentarily "stops in motion." Like he said.. you move around the disc. Looks like a reach back in real time but that's what happens.. the pros "leave the disc behind" for a split second..

 

[NEKyota]

I don't disagree with fluke. McBeth has a vid telling Brodie to move around the disc.. if you notice in any slowmo vid the disc stays basically above his left foot during the x-step.. then plants his right foot(disc still over his left) and hips rotate forward and then the disc is slung with momentum.. that's why every camera angle from behind Paul it looks like his disc momentarily "stops in motion." Like he said.. you move around the disc. Looks like a reach back in real time but that's what happens.. the pros "leave the disc behind" for a split second..

Not to mention Eagle McMahon says don't reach back.. but reach out.. which is essentially a wide rail technique.. but they nearly all do that to some degree.. suspend the discs motion for a split second to get the leg, then hips, then upper body going to allow the "whip" because the arm is the last thing to be impacted by the momentum build up.. FWIW..

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't disagree with fluke. McBeth has a vid telling Brodie to move around the disc.. if you notice in any slowmo vid the disc stays basically above his left foot during the x-step.. then plants his right foot(disc still over his left) and hips rotate forward and then the disc is slung with momentum.. that's why every camera angle from behind Paul it looks like his disc momentarily "stops in motion." Like he said.. you move around the disc. Looks like a reach back in real time but that's what happens.. the pros "leave the disc behind" for a split second..

Welcome back to the future exactly one year.

 

[NEKyota]

Well ya gotta be good at something!!

 

[NEKyota]

McFly would be proud..

 

[BDDG]

The main reasons the top pros don't hit the top of the backswing until they plant the front foot are:

"Plant" does this mean when the heel is all the way down? Or when the toe first touches? Or in between?

Currently my top of the reach back is when my toe first touches the ground. I am hoping this answer would help my timing. I am getting stuck after my heel hits the the ground. after "crushing the can".

Thank you in advance.

 

[sidewinder22]

"Plant" does this mean when the heel is all the way down? Or when the toe first touches? Or in between?

Currently my top of the reach back is when my toe first touches the ground. I am hoping this answer would help my timing. I am getting stuck after my heel hits the the ground. after "crushing the can".

Thank you in advance.

There can be some variance depending on how much start to brace in the toes, but if you were to pause at the real top of the backswing the heel would be on the ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=1m30s