Rules Calls - Future Voting Idea

[JC17393]

Agreed, that there shouldnt be scenarios where you dont have to watch but I think there needs to be a black and white list of times when a player could be excused.

It would be impossible to make an exhaustive list of such exceptions. And you know any attempt to do so would be shredded the first time a justifiable but one in a million exception came up but wasn't on the list. Better to leave it to the judgement of those on the scene in the moment to make the call and leave it at that.

 

[teemkey]

802.02.E

To facilitate flow of play, a player who is not next may throw if the player who is next consents, or if throwing will not impact the player who is next.

A 100' wide fairway. Three players on the extreme left, one player on the extreme right. All about the same distance (say 125') from target. Seems like the player on the right can throw at any time without warning the other players.

True?

 

[Horsman]

It would be impossible to make an exhaustive list of such exceptions. And you know any attempt to do so would be shredded the first time a justifiable but one in a million exception came up but wasn't on the list. Better to leave it to the judgement of those on the scene in the moment to make the call and leave it at that.

To be clear here, I do agree with you but I think we need a better way to enforce it and Im not sure there is a good way to enforce it.

 

[biscoe]

802.02.E


A 100' wide fairway. Three players on the extreme left, one player on the extreme right. All about the same distance (say 125') from target. Seems like the player on the right can throw at any time without warning the other players.

True?

I'll go with usually false. Someone is technically out and it is up to them whether they are "impacted" which will mean a lot of different things to a lot of different players. To some players even the concept that they not play in the "right" order may be "impactful".

I played an event yesterday . During the first round one of the players preferred we play in the "correct" order with no tips of the cap to convenience or speed of play- so we did. During the second round we were all in agreement that allowing for convenience and speed of play made for a better playing experience- so we did. Both were fine.

 

[roadtripstuff]

Idk about this, you might be watching the shot or a different shot or putting your disc away or anything. I dont think you should be penalized for not watching the exact infraction that occurred. You might be watching intently and still miss it. You shouldnt be at fault for that. IMO

But the rules clearly state that you are to watch each throw to assist in finding lost discs and to ensure that the rules are being followed. No watching is not playing by the rules.

 

[BrotherDave]

"Sorry guys, I wasn't paying attention b/c I was being attacked by a bee."

"It's Winter, Bill."

"Yeah, it was an arctic bee. Prove me wrong. :|"

:\

 

[ru4por]

Only one player should be throwing at a time, so no one should be watching a different shot. And players are obligated by rule to watch their groupmates throw to ensure rules compliance, so "putting your disc away" isn't really a valid reason to not be watching either. That's something that can be done before or after the throw, it doesn't have to happen during a throw.

I also think there's a difference between actively watching and not seeing the infraction that was called (which IMO would result in a vote against the caller) and not watching at all and therefore not seeing the infraction (something worthy of a courtesy violation). Pretty sure biscoe was getting at the latter rather than the former.

Could be circumstances that prevent the view of a moment that a disc rolls in then back out of bounds. The player on the tee pad gets in the way, a tree is blocking the view or a rabid moose crosses the fairway after the throw.

 

[araytx]

Future idea for resolving certain rules calls that require players in the group to either see it when it happens like foot faults, last point inbounds and making mandos or see it such as line calls for IB/OB. Players in the group can make these calls and what it means:

(A1) "I am the rule caller" = "One vote for caller's vote"
(B1) "I vote with the caller" = "One vote for caller's vote"
(C1) "I did not see it" = "One vote for caller's vote"
(D1) "I vote against caller'" = "One vote against caller's vote"
(E1) "I can't decide" = "Half vote for caller / half against the caller"

Add up the votes for the decision. If it's tied in several ways such as an (A1), (C1) and 2 (D1) votes, benefit to the caller (not thrower). The important thing here is with option (C1) as a default when the player isn't looking, the caller gets a full vote in their favor whatever that is. Hopefully, that's an incentive for more players in the group to pay attention, including the thrower in the case of foot faulting.

* * *

(A2) "I am the thrower" = "One vote for the thrower's vote"
(B2) "I vote with the thrower" = "One vote for the thrower's vote"
(C2) "I did not see it" = "One vote for the thrower's vote"
(D2) "I vote against thrower" = "One vote against the thrower's vote"
(E2) "I can't decide" = "Half vote for thrower / half against the thrower"

Add up the votes for the decision. If it's tied in several ways such as an (A2), (C2), 2 (D2) and (E2) votes, benefit to the thrower. The important thing here is with option (C2) as a default when the player in the group isn't looking, the thrower gets a full vote in their favor whatever that is. Hopefully, that's an incentive for more players in the group to pay attention.

CHuck:

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying, so help me with this scenario:

5-player group, Player 1 is the thrower, and makes their throw.
Player 2 calls a foot fault.
Player 3 says I saw it and it was not a foot fault.
Player 4 says I did not see it.
player 5 says I did not see it.
Player 1 says no way that was a foot fault.

Does your system mean Player 1 IS assessed the 1-throw penalty for stance violation ... or no?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Is there a problem with the current method that is to a point it needs fixing? Voting and points and what not seems pretty elaborate for what may be no actual change to play.

A scenario that came up last weekend at a mini. We were playing a safari style layout so unfamiliar holes to everyone which may have been a bit of a factor in "seeing".
An "island" hole with a winding road and parking area acting as a river OB. From the tee area the road was shaped like a reverse question mark, teeing from the period at the bottom and the hole was on an island above the question mark with a safe grass area inside the question mark area. If that all makes any sense.
My shot I threw directly at the basket and my disc goes over the safe grass area crosses the OB road and lands safe near the basket. Easy enough ....
One of the players on the card is left handed and I had assumed making the island wasn't going to be a problem but the way it was fading out I thought a skip right and off the island. As the disc is coming down it was actually short. It made a big skip on the pavement so we as a group went to see if it had completely crossed the road and maybe ended up safe on the far side. It hadn't. So he said he had to re-tee he never crossed an inbounds area. The whole card watched the throw but I could have sworn even left handed he had started nearly straight at the basket and crosses the safe area one of the cardmates agreed with me and the third basically said he had no idea. We were all watching the throw and all it turns out more concerned with if it was going take make the island we hadn't noticed the initial path. The thrower was insistent he had to re-tee rather than take a drop 50' from the basket. and the rest of us not being sure in anyway didn't argue.
Watching his second throw more carefully and again the throw the next round which followed the same path just more power to make the island it was obvious the disc followed the path of the road not crossing safe area until it reached the green.
Now I'm not sure based on the discussion here should the three of us get stroked for not paying close enough attention? The correct call was made with a very short and quick discussion no vote needed which may have needed up 2-2 because 2 of us mis-remembered the flight of the disc as is not uncommon in sports. Instant replay has changed a lot about how we judge sports.

 

[araytx]

Hey, cgkdisc, what about

"I did not see it" and "I can't decide" = automatic courtesy violation

before anything else is decided?

 

[DiscFifty]

jeesh.... if the group (ie: everyone on the card) can't decide a majority for or against the player, benefit goes to the player and move on. The only other option is to totally remove it from the group and include an official, but no one likes that because our sport is self regulating. But as Terry said on Facebook, the group hardly ever cares enough to watch the throw. yep....

 

[araytx]

jeesh.... if the group (ie: everyone on the card) can't decide a majority for or against the player, benefit goes to the player and move on. The only other option is to totally remove it from the group and include an official, but no one likes that because our sport is self regulating. But as Terry said on Facebook, the group hardly ever cares enough to watch the throw. yep....

I agree with Dave. Just leave it like it is...until there is enough money in our sport to have officials on each hole.

 

[Steve West]

Hey, cgkdisc, what about

"I did not see it" and "I can't decide" = automatic courtesy violation

before anything else is decided?

Players are only required to watch. Not all situations can be decided even if the player is watching. In those, don't call a violation for the situation in question, nor for failing to decide.

 

[mosman253]

How about any player who responds with "i didnt see it" recieves a warning the first time and a penalty the subsequent times. All ties go to the thrower. And on a side note allow photo evidence please.

 

[Karl]

How about any player who responds with "i didnt see it" recieves a warning the first time and a penalty the subsequent times. All ties go to the thrower. And on a side note allow photo evidence please.

Not crazy about the first part there because - dead serious - some people (like ME) have terrible distance vision and may not be the best to determine what side of a mando a disc passed, etc.