Scorecard playoff?

[Doofenshmirtz]

I don't see it in the rules, of course, but I wonder what, if any, objection there would be to a scorecard playoff in a situation where there is limited daylight for a playoff.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think an established putting competition format at one basket whether hole 18, practice basket or portable should become the preferred standard for playoffs. In the case of darkness, it can be lit with headlights. In the case of tour events, spectators don't have to move, there's faster action than playing holes, it tests a skill that's part of the game, there's potentially more immediate drama, and it's easier to video, especially in low light conditions.

 

[biscoe]

For non-PDGA events I would think it is functional as long as methodology is stated ahead of time (unless the method is straight retrogression which I find seriously counter-intuitive). I am pretty sure my personal preference would be for a CTP or putt off though. Fairly likely I would just as soon stay tied as well.

@Cgkdisc- do you mean for ALL playoffs or just those under threat of darkness? If all I disagree heartily.

 

[Cgkdisc]

For non-PDGA events I would think it is functional as long as methodology is stated ahead of time (unless the method is straight retrogression which I find seriously counter-intuitive). I am pretty sure my personal preference would be for a CTP or putt off though. Fairly likely I would just as soon stay tied as well.

@Cgkdisc- do you mean for ALL playoffs or just those under threat of darkness? If all I disagree heartily.

Yes, I mean specifically for all first-place playoffs on tour. Optional for other events not being live streamed. Much better choice for the reasons I stated above, especially if players must throw each putt in less than 15 seconds. Seems like doing it is a no-brainer for the DGPT. The wrangling should be about designing the putting competition format.

 

[biscoe]

Yes, I mean specifically for all first-place playoffs on tour. Optional for other events not being live streamed. Much better choice for the reasons I stated above, especially if players must throw each putt in less than 15 seconds. Seems like doing it is a no-brainer for the DGPT. The wrangling should be about designing the putting competition format.

So not only a test of a fraction of the game but a sped up version at that? Hard pass. IMO the no brainer for DGPT is reducing field sizes for final days of competition to avoid this sort of nonsense.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So not only a test of a fraction of the game but a sped up version at that? Hard pass. IMO the no brainer for DGPT is reducing field sizes for final days of competition to avoid this sort of nonsense.

Putting competition is a more skillful and consistent way to decide playoffs than playing holes unless you're playing all 18 like they used to do in ball golf. The putting format would be established so everyone would be able to practice it anywhere, anytime. Players and fans would always know what to expect for playoffs just like shootouts in hockey or soccer. The current format playing one or a few individual holes will inherently be skills biased, rarely tests putting from equal distances and/or will potentially have fluky design elements. And, of course, there are different types and lengths of playoff holes at every venue. A coin flip would be just as fair to break ties the way they have been done.

 

[Shallows]

Yes, I mean specifically for all first-place playoffs on tour. Optional for other events not being live streamed. Much better choice for the reasons I stated above, especially if players must throw each putt in less than 15 seconds. Seems like doing it is a no-brainer for the DGPT. The wrangling should be about designing the putting competition format.

I like this idea so much the NFL should steal it and just do a kicking competition for all overtimes. NBA could do a free-throw contest. MLB could do pick-off throws. Take the best part of the game and highlight it. No-brainer.

 

[biscoe]

Putting competition is a more skillful and consistent way to decide playoffs than playing holes unless you're playing all 18 like they used to do in ball golf. The putting format would be established so everyone would be able to practice it anywhere, anytime. Players and fans would always know what to expect for playoffs just like shootouts in hockey or soccer.

Shootouts in hockey and soccer are also awful imo.

The current format playing one or a few individual holes will inherently be skills biased, rarely tests putting from equal distances and/or will potentially have fluky design elements. And, of course, there are different types and lengths of playoff holes at every venue.

The fact that the playoff holes differ from place to place is a selling point not a detriment imo. Putting contest is even more skills biased than being asked to play holes which would at least be biased towards different skills from one venue to the next. I suspect the FPO players not named Ohn would all agree with me.

A coin flip would be just as fair to break ties the way they have been done.

Absolute nonsense.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I like this idea so much the NFL should steal it and just do a kicking competition for all overtimes. NBA could do a free-throw contest. MLB could do pick-off throws. Take the best part of the game and highlight it. No-brainer.

Each sport makes changes to speed up the game and also to resolve ties (or let them stand) in a skillful, fair, consistent, and timely/affordable way. Our current playoff system fails three sometimes four of those parameters. A coin flip meets three of the four. Putting playoff can meet all four. Come up with a better idea.

 

[biscoe]

Both of the currently allowable options (sudden death and aggregate playoff) are infinitely better than a putt off. Solution to timeliness is cut the bottom of the field before Sunday or not have the FPO on the same course as MPO.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Both of the currently allowable options (sudden death and aggregate playoff) are infinitely better than a putt off. Solution to timeliness is cut the bottom of the field before Sunday or not have the FPO on the same course as MPO.

You keep making assertions that the current way is better without objective reasons why that's so, versus the specific reasons my proposal is objectively better for TDs, players, spectators, volunteers, videographers, and those footing the bill to produce the benefits I listed. The current way is continued primarily because it's the "traditional" way and "seems to work for ball golf" which is not enough reason in the face of the DGPT/PDGA balancing different environmental, logistical, financial and entertainment factors for live streaming. The decision makers should at least test potentially better ways.

The biggest drawback in advancing this or any sport is shooting reasonable ideas down without even testing potential improvements. For example, the newest test revealed this week is the NFL kickoff format for next season. They will decide after one year whether to continue or tweak it even more.

Note that the proposed putting competition would not be sudden death but a preset number of putts from different locations and maybe include some required styles with a set scoring system. Yes, if it's tied after the first round of competition, it might continue in a win by 2 type sudden death if needed, or maybe do another round of the original format before sudden death.

Note that the only scoring shots in our game are those near the target with the exception of eagles/aces. Every putt has action and drama when the players are taking turns putting from constantly shifting angles and distances.

 

[biscoe]

The reason the 2 methods are superior is they most closely mimic the game play required to reach the playoff to begin with. 18 hole playoff the following day would be even better but we aren't there yet and won't be any time soon. The only thing about a putting contest that is better for any of the shareholders you mention is that it can be done in almost no time when it is getting dark out. I fail to see how you can cry "it's a different game" about courses with OB and literally ask for a different game in this case.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The reason the 2 methods are superior is they most closely mimic the game play required to reach the playoff to begin with. 18 hole playoff the following day would be even better but we aren't there yet and won't be any time soon. The only thing about a putting contest that is better for any of the shareholders you mention is that it can be done in almost no time when it is getting dark out. I fail to see how you can cry "it's a different game" about courses with OB and literally ask for a different game in this case.

It's in the hands of those decision makers who read or hear about it to consider whether to test the idea. Many things about live streaming changes or should change the calculus from the old days.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Each sport makes changes to speed up the game and also to resolve ties (or let them stand) in a skillful, fair, consistent, and timely/affordable way. Our current playoff system fails three sometimes four of those parameters. A coin flip meets three of the four. Putting playoff can meet all four. Come up with a better idea.

What is not skillful, fair, consistent and timely about a scorecard playoff. My preference is a sudden death playoff beginning at hole 1. Unless the players tie all holes, the tournament is over at the end of the last scheduled round. Nothing is more timely. It tests skill. The only fairness and consistency issues are baked into the tournament itself (for which, in fairness, the scorecard playoff could be said to amplify them). But when trying to beat darkness, it seems like a reasonable way to do it.

PS. I didn't specify, but I'm really talking about non-tour events. Those should definitely take the possible entertainment value of a playoff into consideration.

 

[Shallows]

These are all great ideas, piggybacking off of them: what if the two competitors both wrote checks for the highest amount they felt comfortable risking (without telling the other competitor) Jeopardy style, and then we had the DGN cameras follow them as they withdrew the money from their bank account and put them in envelopes which Jeff Spring then opens up on camera, the higher amount gets the win, the DGPT pockets the cash from both competitors. Could also loop in some sponsorship $$$ from like Price Waterhouse Cooper or something to count the money.

 

[Countchunkula]

These are all great ideas, piggybacking off of them: what if the two competitors both wrote checks for the highest amount they felt comfortable risking (without telling the other competitor) Jeopardy style, and then we had the DGN cameras follow them as they withdrew the money from their bank account and put them in envelopes which Jeff Spring then opens up on camera, the higher amount gets the win, the DGPT pockets the cash from both competitors. Could also loop in some sponsorship $$$ from like Price Waterhouse Cooper or something to count the money.

PwC audits our books. Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't trust them to count the money, but to your point they might be a good fit as a sponsor.

 

[glassila]

These are all great ideas, piggybacking off of them: what if the two competitors both wrote checks for the highest amount they felt comfortable risking (without telling the other competitor) Jeopardy style, and then we had the DGN cameras follow them as they withdrew the money from their bank account and put them in envelopes which Jeff Spring then opens up on camera, the higher amount gets the win, the DGPT pockets the cash from both competitors. Could also loop in some sponsorship $$$ from like Price Waterhouse Cooper or something to count the money.

Awww shucks, yer just funnin with us ain't cha Shallows??

 

[Cgkdisc]

What is not skillful, fair, consistent and timely about a scorecard playoff. My preference is a sudden death playoff beginning at hole 1. Unless the players tie all holes, the tournament is over at the end of the last scheduled round. Nothing is more timely. It tests skill. The only fairness and consistency issues are baked into the tournament itself (for which, in fairness, the scorecard playoff could be said to amplify them). But when trying to beat darkness, it seems like a reasonable way to do it.

Playing all 18 holes is a complete game unit of challenges which we agree can't/won't be done. Each hole tests a different combination of challenges. Any starting playoff hole and those that follow which may or may not need to be played are a random portion of the full game unit with the skill mix required biased toward one player no matter how chosen. We've become an international sport at the elite level. Establishing a consistent playoff format that can be duplicated and practiced everywhere in the world is a plus. A coin flip is still fairer, consistent and timely plus it adds drama just like the coin flip for NFL overtime, but most would agree it is completely void of any component of the game. Perhaps one of the fairest playoff formats is in college football that tests most skills with continuous action and compelling drama for all involved. The putting concept could at least be developed, and the format published. Gamify it for putting leagues to run so players are prepared in the event ties need to be broken this way due to weather or for the original post pertaining to darkness.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

Playing all 18 holes is a complete game unit of challenges which we agree can't/won't be done. Each hole tests a different combination of challenges. Any starting playoff hole and those that follow which may or may not need to be played are a random portion of the full game unit with the skill mix required biased toward one player no matter how chosen. We've become an international sport at the elite level. Establishing a consistent playoff format that can be duplicated and practiced everywhere in the world is a plus. A coin flip is still fairer, consistent and timely plus it adds drama just like the coin flip for NFL overtime, but most would agree it is completely void of any component of the game. Perhaps one of the fairest playoff formats is in college football that tests most skills with continuous action and compelling drama for all involved. The putting concept could at least be developed, and the format published. Gamify it for putting leagues to run so players are prepared in the event ties need to be broken this way due to weather or for the original post pertaining to darkness.

Regardless of what format we choose (besides a coin toss) someone is going to be favored due to the format in some way. I'm a career 50% in playoff scenarios and I knew going into the tournament what holes the playoff would take place on (starting on hole 1 and continuing on from there, and looping back after 4 in the most recent case). If we need a quick format, CTP is definitely the way to go, but I'd pick a spot that isn't a tee pad, or is a tee pad to another basket or something like that. I'm not great at CTPs, but I'd rather take my chances on them than basically know I'm screwed in a putting contest. I can't think of a format that would really favor me on the putting green, unless it's C1 rules expanded to C2 (which is how it needs to be in play anyways) and it starts from C2 and goes back from there.

 

[wolfhaley]

Solution to timeliness is cut the bottom of the field before Sunday or not have the FPO on the same course as MPO.

Agree 100% here. I agree with your first point as well. Apparently multi quoting on here is non intuitive or sensical like the DGPT.

Having a round finish in the dark is asinine. Cut the field down. To turn it into a putting competition is absurd. Cut the field down to allow for enough time, basic time management skills. It just doesn't seem that hard.