Selah Ranch

[SpringDgLover]

Spring, I agree with you 100% about the need to maximize the role of skill and to minimize the impact of luck. And I agree with a couple other things you said.

So here is how you completely eliminate the role of luck on that second shot on Lakeside #7: throw short of the trees.

End of story. If you throw into those trees, anything can happen. If you throw short of those trees, the problem is solved. Luck disappears.

I think you said at one point that the hole was otherwise "perfect." Let me explain why I think those trees make it "more perfect." When I'm done, you can agree or not; that's fine.

1. If you play just short of the trees and up against the water, you'll have an open shot of about 200' to the circle. Maybe even 200' to the pin, I forget.

2. The closer you are to those trees, the shorter your shot to the pin. That is the type of tension between risk and reward that I hope for. From the short tee to the "point" is about 340' and leaves you 200'. Or you can go for 320' and 220'. Or 300' and 240' or... whatever you're comfortable with. I think that makes the hole much better.

3. The closer you are to the water, the more open your shot is. The farther you are from the water, the more you'll have to go around those trees. That is a second layer of risk vs. reward, and it makes the hole much, much better. Without those trees, there would be no incentive to play close to the water. So the maximum skill -- getting closer to the trees and closer to the water -- gets the maximum reward.

4. We actually took out a couple trees to make some tight alleys, so that if someone did get stuck in or behind those trees, they would have the option to go for the island through a tight gap rather than laying up. It was actually an early PITTSBORO (sand trap).

5. If those trees weren't there, you could throw a shot that would leave you with 150' to the pin, and I didn't want that. I wanted that shot to the island to be at least 200'. That way, the hole requires more skill on the second shot and more skill on the third shot.

One more thing: We did open a route around all those trees for rec players who shouldn't be throwing 200' over water. You should be able to see that alley from the red tee, but you probably wouldn't see it from anywhere else on the fairway.

There are so many little details that go into creating a hole this complex, so I hope I was able to explain my thought process. It's really hard to get all these elements to work together, but I believe they all come together just about perfectly on Lakeside #7. If you think I'm still wrong, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Glad we agree on the other things.

Thanks,
John

I can see your points about preventing a shot that would give the player a 150' up by bypassing the penisula but at the same time that peice of land on the right is pretty narrow and if you over throw it you are in the woods and throwing out and still trying to make the island. To you can keep the one most left tree and still accomplish what you are looking for while also decreasing the luck factor.

 

[johnrhouck]

Another bad hole in my opinion, so called lines on the left are non-existant, that side is throw and pray. The outside right route is there but then that kind of wastes a great piece of property.

It so interesting how one person says the outside right is there and another says it's not. One person says the left line is genius and one says it's ridiculous.

I can't show it to you in person -- if I could I think this would be a very brief discussion. But all we have is the tee sign map and your memories, so let's do our best. The map shows exactly how the hole is designed. If you take the right route, first shot out by the short tee, there's a straight line inside the trees and a huge righty hyzer around everything. The landing area on the second shot is ample and leaves you looking straight down the peninsula for an up-and-down birdie. I actually got to see someone park that third shot during the tournament a couple weeks ago, which was great. And a good thing for his team, because his partner had taken the left route and was really struggling.

The right route is meant to give you an eagle opportunity, but it requires two superior shots. The landing area is actually quite large, and from there the gap to the hole is also pretty big. In fact, it would make a great par three from there. If you miss your drive slightly, there are a couple though gaps that you would never notice from anywhere else on the fairway. If you miss that drive bad, good luck. At that point, the hole is set up to make you wish you had taken the right route. You should have a hard time getting a four if you miss that drive. Big risk and big reward... and big downside.

As for Rodney's question about OB, besides the obvious issue of crossing the creek twice and the potential conflict with #9, making that side in-bounds would allow someone to throw a safe drive, throw an easy righty hyzer across the creek and then pitch up to the pin. It creates a huge NAGS opportunity and unravels most of the strategy off the tee.

Anecdotally, that hole did get eagled early on, and here's what the reviewer said: "Finally, John can sleep at night. This course has some of the holes that John used to dream about in his sleep, in particular hole 10." That review was by Clue, whom Rodney knows well. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/revie...in=&exp_max=&exp_played=&exp_reviewed=&page=3

And he was absolutely right about Creekside having several dream holes -- Creekside #10 may be my all-time favorite example of a par 5 that has a clear and fair eagle route and a clear and fair birdie route.

 

[johnrhouck]

To you can keep the one most left tree and still accomplish what you are looking for while also decreasing the luck factor.

Spring, glad the rest of it made sense. But in my book, if you leave only the leftmost tree, you actually increase the luck factor. Some people will hit it, some will miss it -- it just becomes random. As it stands, a bold shot is rewarded (or appropriately punished), and if someone wants to lay up (we haven't even mentioned the potential to throw your second shot short, throw a safe third shot, and then go for the green in four -- we've only been discussing going for the green in three), they can do that, too. And I'm sure a lot of people wish they had, including me.

Thanks.

 

[SpringDgLover]

Spring, glad the rest of it made sense. But in my book, if you leave only the leftmost tree, you actually increase the luck factor. Some people will hit it, some will miss it -- it just becomes random. As it stands, a bold shot is rewarded (or appropriately punished), and if someone wants to lay up (we haven't even mentioned the potential to throw your second shot short, throw a safe third shot, and then go for the green in four -- we've only been discussing going for the green in three), they can do that, too. And I'm sure a lot of people wish they had, including me.

Thanks.

Im kind of confused on what hyzer line you are referring, Ive attached some pictures with red arrows. One is from the long and one is from the basket. Are you saying this is the "huge hyzer line" you are referring to? Also I dont see how getting rid of the trees to the one to the right of the tree Ive highlighted with a blue arrow would increase the luck factor. I think your idea of what a "huge" line is different than what I think.

 

[johnrhouck]

Spring, I'm sorry if it wasn't clear: the "huge hyzer line" I mentioned was in my response to the question about Creekside #10. It's the second shot on the right line, after you throw your drive out past the short tee.

As for leaving a single tree on Lakeside #7, I just believe that any narrow obstacles (like a 6" tree in this case) create luck in this way: let's say you and I both try to throw a LTR shot out over the water that comes in 3' right of that tree.

You miss your line by 3', and you hit that tree and kick into the water. I throw almost the exact same shot, but I miss my line by 3' 7" and wind up high and dry, even though I threw a worse shot than you and went on the wrong side of the tree. Two almost identical shots result in bad luck for you; good luck for me.

Besides, as we already said, getting past those trees leaves people 150' to the island, and that's not how the hole is designed. Here's the solution: players can land 50' short of the trees, leaving them 250' to the island. If they want to get closer, they can take that risk. To be honest, I think those trees are exactly where they need to be. I couldn't have done much better if I had planted them myself.

 

[SpringDgLover]

Spring, I'm sorry if it wasn't clear: the "huge hyzer line" I mentioned was in my response to the question about Creekside #10. It's the second shot on the right line, after you throw your drive out past the short tee.

As for leaving a single tree on Lakeside #7, I just believe that any narrow obstacles (like a 6" tree in this case) create luck in this way: let's say you and I both try to throw a LTR shot out over the water that comes in 3' right of that tree.

You miss your line by 3', and you hit that tree and kick into the water. I throw almost the exact same shot, but I miss my line by 3' 7" and wind up high and dry, even though I threw a worse shot than you and went on the wrong side of the tree. Two almost identical shots result in bad luck for you; good luck for me.

Besides, as we already said, getting past those trees leaves people 150' to the island, and that's not how the hole is designed. Here's the solution: players can land 50' short of the trees, leaving them 250' to the island. If they want to get closer, they can take that risk. To be honest, I think those trees are exactly where they need to be. I couldn't have done much better if I had planted them myself.

Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[johnrhouck]

Agree to disagree I guess.

Fair enough.

 

[grodney]

As for Rodney's question about OB, besides the obvious issue of crossing the creek twice and the potential conflict with #9, making that side in-bounds would allow someone to throw a safe drive, throw an easy righty hyzer across the creek and then pitch up to the pin.

This course was apparently designed for a player far far better than I am. The game has passed me by -- not that I was ever really caught up to it anyway. Le sigh.

 

[grodney]

From the latest review of Creekside: "Hole 16 offers very little bailout option, so you'd better feel comfortable with a long shot over water."

Actual:

The author also says: "Hole 18 is worse, offering no option at all other than a 300-foot shot over water.". I'll admit that the first time I played #18, I mis-read the tee sign and didn't understand that I could play land shots all the way around the water if I chose. But I agree that the peninsula on #18 shouldn't be O.B., as discussed earlier in this thread.

 

[lavon_andy]

The reviewer may have been in the mindset of "This hole is a par 3" for 16, and for 18 it's possible they were thinking "This hole should be a 2"


My take on both holes is this:

16, thrown short and fade out ontu the land, play a safe hyzer shot along the shore, then take a third drive to the basket and putt out for a 4.

18, throw a hyzer to the short tee and land safe and IB, then take the upshot to the pennisula and putt out for a 3


This is a pro level course so it ain't supposed to be easy. Even from the shorts.

But I can also see how he gets that opinion, when you step up to that hole one may think "wtf am I supposed to do here"

 

[Qikly]

Just visited last week! It was amazing.

Personally I thought that 16 Creekside was one of the tamer water holes. The woods are pretty thinned out, so throwing hyzers into safe landing zones is very doable. I missed a makeable putt for 4 playing it from the reds my first time through. Skipped it the second time to have more time for some Lakeside favorites.

I do think 18 is pretty brutal from the longs. It's also more one-dimensional than a lot of the other water holes. It's all about just not getting wet.

 

[grodney]

Wow, Qikly -- fantastic readable review of Creekside -- very nice. I'll assume your review of Lakeside will be similar, so my compliments in advance.

p.s. What weather did you have? Temp? Wind (strength and direction)?

 

[Qikly]

Wow, Qikly -- fantastic readable review of Creekside -- very nice. I'll assume your review of Lakeside will be similar, so my compliments in advance.

p.s. What weather did you have? Temp? Wind (strength and direction)?

Thanks Grodney! I really appreciate that.

Our day started off overcast, and I think we got the slightest hint of a drizzle at some point early on. The clouds started to break at the beginning of our second round, at Lakeside, and by the time we were making our second run through of the courses it was perfect. The high was probably around 75 or so. Hard to tell with the wind.

The wind was very strong throughout our first play through (variously ~15-25 mph), though being in the woods on Lakeside helped a lot. I missed making the island on Lakeside 7 on my second shot by just a couple of feet (from the short tees) while having to throw into a serious headwind. That shot still haunts me. The wind switched direction throughout the day: we had a crosswind on 3-5 Creekside that stayed consistent directionally for a while, but getting down to Lakeside it started to change up. I was very happy with shooting even on both courses (again, from the shorts) given how much wind there was, even if the pars are a bit generous at some spots.

 

[grodney]

Very cool -- sounds like a great day. Lakeside #5-#15 (minus #7) is such a nice break from the wind out there.

 

[Qikly]

Yeah, couldn't really ask for a better temperature, and it was nice to not have to worry about getting sunburned. I was really apprehensive about the wind when we got out of the car, but it turned out to be less of a factor than I thought it would be. The holes that were most affected were when you were playing with water to your left.

I've been thinking a lot about different peoples' opinions on different holes now that I've had the chance to play them a few times. Going to make more in-depth comments later, but my brother and I both found Creekside 3 to be fair (if daunting and a bit unforgiving) and Lakeside 14 to be much fairer than most seem to think (he parred it from the shorts both times playing the outside route, and I was in position to par it twice even though I got nasty kicks off trees on my second shot both times).

Lots of amazing par 4-5s in that middle section of Lakeside that are just totally engrossing.

As an aside, if any of you Selah fans ever make it to western Pennsylvania, you need to check out Linbrook. It's still raw and only 9 holes are in, but it's got the makings of something special. Its risk/reward par 4s and 5s reminded me a lot of those found at Selah. I kept thinking about it while I was playing through Lakeside in particular.

 

[grodney]

Bad news in case you missed it on the Selah page -- Cookie the dog died the day before Easter.

Here's where we found her every morning at the Corral House. I think she liked us -- not just our scraps of brisket and ribeye.

Slippery Pete last year, and now Cookie this year. That sukcs. RIP to both.

 

[Johnny_Crunch]

RIP Cookie

 

[lavon_andy]

She was a great dog, at teams she hung out by our massive bonfire and slept in my buddies tent.

RIP Cookie

 

[grodney]

What do y'all think of my re-design for the Front 9 of Creekside?

#1 tees off from approx the same spot, but now goes west of the path. I think I like the back-left tuck in the corner more than the short-right option, but really it just depends on creativity with the trees that are there and the available approach angles. Still a 2-shot hole.

#2 is the current #3.

Now a new 3-hole loop in the woods. You can do anything you want here. I've shown 1 anhyzer, 1 hyzer, and 1 straight. But really, there's enough room to do whatever. This would give a nice wooded feel that is absent at Creekside. You can make 2-shot holes, 1-shot holes, tight, wider, multiple-fairways -- whatever you like. That takes care of holes #3, #4, #5.

#6 is a 2-shot hole that is current #4 and #5 combined. It is 639ft as the crow flies from the #4 tee to the #5 pin. The closer you get to the water on your first shot, the better (safer) angle you have to the pin.

#7 is the current #6.

#8 is an all-new fairly open 3-shot (par 5) hole. It tees off from the current #7, and goes to approx the current #8. The idea is to replace (and improve) the current #8, while still getting over to the #9 tee.

#9 remains the same.


p.s. If it's not obvious, the yellow is the current layout, and the green is the re-design.

p.p.s. Yes, I realize it's a bad idea to re-design a Houck course. But it's a lot of days between March and March, and I gotta do something to fill the time.

 

[johnrhouck]

Rodney,

I'm glad that you love Selah enough that you can have Selah fantasies to fill your free time. I'd like to send you back to the drawing board a bit. Those woods are not available for permanent use -- they hold water too much of the year, and there are a couple other issues. (They are also very flat and boring, other than the occasional weird mound.)

As for your #4 tee to #5 basket, I think you would find that the farther you are from the water, the more of a wide-open hyzer you have to the pin. Only shots that come in too hot would have any fear of water. Of course, any approach shots that come in too short would have a tricky putt, with the downslope to the water behind the pin.

On the other hand, you're new #1 is kind of cool. I did have several versions of the original routing that had #1 going out that way.