Should I Blow Up My Form and Start Over?

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hi everybody! I'm an old timer just recently interested in getting better again. I was satisfied with my game for years and years just to play for fun casually with my friends and call it good. Made it to 951 (albeit that was a very small sample size, probably more like 930) back in 2005-06 with a good short game and accurate but small drives, the story of my life. That was the last time I played in a sanctioned event. 1999-2000 was my tournament-playing heyday. I was all RHFH then. Hurt my elbow and it took over a decade to develop something serviceable from the backhand side. I'm accurate to about 300' but not much more. Prototypical old-guy-who-only-throws-280-but-can-hang-in-there type of player making some good putts and staying safe with lots of pars.

Enter YouTube, which I believe was invented the same year or so I last played seriously in Am-1.

...and enter all the good pro coverage we have today. I only discovered it as recently as last year and am HOOKED. I can't just sit here after watching so many hours of that without wanting to be good. I crave it.

I realize now after digging into Danny Lindahl and Simon Lizotte videos that I was strong-arming all these years, all upper body. Never even heard the term "power pocket" until last year.

This October or so I finally felt the hit that comes from the power pocket and I made some good progress before the snow started falling here. I'm not driving farther than I used to by much (I'll get 330' on my best good pulls), but it's way smoother and easier than even how I was throwing last year. My fastest Disc is a well-loved PFN Star Beast but most everything is speed 9 or slower. Not a fan of wide-rimmed newfangled stuff too much.

I'm not 50 yet and still in okay shape. The only thing I can't really do anymore is throw power forehands. I used up my quota on those as a young guy! I think if I tapped out my potential I could maybe, mayyyyybe touch 400' someday with a RHBH if I clean up everything? All of this stuff like "brace" and "the hit" are new concepts to think about for me.

My question is this. Would it be better to fix existing decades-old bad habits, or just blow it all up and head to the practice field with a stack of putters and do standstills, reworking it from the ground up?

I'm going to get my kids out there who are way better at technology and have them use their gadgets to film my throw one of these days. I realize it would be more helpful to have a video to make this determination.

My goal is to play well in the MA 40+ division this upcoming spring for a few tournaments, and if I do that maybe even get bold enough to see if I can hang in Am-1 like I did 20 years ago, especially since most of the MA 40+ tournaments are on Sundays around here and I work Sundays. (We used to call it "Am Masters.")

Looking forward to 2020 big time! I feel like a kid again!

 

[ru4por]

Moving your rating upward is going to come from your short game. More practice, less playing for fun. Not my style, but that is why I suck, lol.

 

[DiscJunkie]

I'll tell you my story and it may help...
Started when I was 50, 2008, and improved fairly rapidly and was somewhat successful in my first 5 years or so. Putting lights out and very good short game. Recovery game was stellar.
Then I hit a wall around that 5-6 yr mark. Just couldn't improve because my form was so broken.
So I started going to a baseball field, throwing, filming, submitting to technique forum, trying to fix things, throwing, filming, submitting...rinse and repeat...repeatedly for the last 5-6 years. I am not athletically gifted, but persistence helps.
Playing is a lot more fun for me now, I can throw distances that make me giggle.
If I could get my short game back and learn how to putt again, it'll be even better.

What have I learned?
Rebuilding your form is not a quick fix.
It took way longer than I thought it would.
My progress was progressive. I had to build on things over time. Fix one thing before I could progress onto the next thing.
Having decent form makes your whole game better, because if you are able to throw a putter 300', throwing it 250' or 200' is that much easier.
I'll never be as good as PM, I have to be satisfied being as good as I can be (and that can take a lot of work).

 

[Jay Dub]

I'll tell you my story and it may help...
Started when I was 50, 2008, and improved fairly rapidly and was somewhat successful in my first 5 years or so. Putting lights out and very good short game. Recovery game was stellar.
Then I hit a wall around that 5-6 yr mark. Just couldn't improve because my form was so broken.
So I started going to a baseball field, throwing, filming, submitting to technique forum, trying to fix things, throwing, filming, submitting...rinse and repeat...repeatedly for the last 5-6 years. I am not athletically gifted, but persistence helps.
Playing is a lot more fun for me now, I can throw distances that make me giggle.
If I could get my short game back and learn how to putt again, it'll be even better.

What have I learned?
Rebuilding your form is not a quick fix.
It took way longer than I thought it would.
My progress was progressive. I had to build on things over time. Fix one thing before I could progress onto the next thing.
Having decent form makes your whole game better, because if you are able to throw a putter 300', throwing it 250' or 200' is that much easier.
I'll never be as good as PM, I have to be satisfied being as good as I can be (and that can take a lot of work).

About 7 years ago (I'm 62) I changed my form to get longer and was somewhat successful. But like you said I lost my short, finesse game along with not as good putting. So I decided to go back to my old form and it's been much more fun for me and good for my game.

I'm throwing farther now than ever but that's mainly from smooth, good form and 150 class drivers. My short game and putting is back.

I think trading distance off for that was the best for my game.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

All sagacious advice, thank you. 2020 will be an adventure for me. I hope I never lose my putting. I enjoy that aspect of the game greatly.

 

[Shamis]

Go for it. Get the kids out there filming you. If you're healthy you should be able to figure out a way to hit 400. I think that's the sweet spot for scoring. Lots of par 3's these days are in the 360-420 foot range, and without a big arm you just can't get the birdie look you need to hang with good players.

Just remember, when you rebuild everything you will suck really badly for many months, and possibly the whole year. You have to commit to it, or don't bother.

 

[zontar]

this is a good thread for me, a 55 yo with a very good short game and decent putting. I just can't drive for real distance. makes me want to keep enjoying my short game and not commit to rebuilding my form. I'm just not a goal oriented person, I guess kudos to those who are and want it, though. I just won't lay bets against you when we meet on the course....

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I shouldn't have trouble committing to it. My practice field is behind my house, and throwing Discs is an intrinsic happy activity for me. Maybe I don't enter tournaments while I take some steps backward at first. It's not like I'm all of a sudden missing out on that, haven't been in a sanctioned event since 2006.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I shouldn't have trouble committing to it. My practice field is behind my house, and throwing Discs is an intrinsic happy activity for me. Maybe I don't enter tournaments while I take some steps backward at first. It's not like I'm all of a sudden missing out on that, haven't been in a sanctioned event since 2006.

I think the commitment to it is the key. I also think blowing it all up is the best way to go. trying to slowly piecemeal fix parts is a very slow process that in the end concludes with "I shoulda just blown it up and started over."

I have the advantage of having not had much ingrained when I (re)started. I can't really say I played 25 years ago since it was such a short attempt but starting over a few years ago and having the same horrible form but then the youtubes and this site helped.

I think my big advice is a do as I say not as I do. Practice film and tweak as much as possible. It seems the more committed someone is in their personal form thread the more committed SW22 is to helping. I have been bad about rarely filming and finding issues that are too obvious to need help to fix. But that being said... I know I am on the cusp of 400' (have been for a while) and though I want to throw farther, i'm in a place I generally outdistance all of the rest of the AM40 group. If I only had a good short game. My approach game has come along with my distance game, but putting is a bigger issue for me. I don't think driving and putting performance is mutually exclusive though.

 

[DiscFifty]

40+ 350-375 is fine, 50+ 300-350 is fine. Both divisions require a good short game to be competitive. I agree, if you're shooting for am1 you'll need a 400+ drive to take down some wins.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Yeah, we didn't need 400' in 1999 to compete in Am-1. I had a super accurate 300' forehand, good upshots and putting, but hardly any backhand for distance. Not even 300'. I would occasionally cash but not get much above the top 10 in any tournament. Usually right in the middle. I competed in wooded courses much better than open ones, obviously. Sometimes I'd finish in the bottom quartile too. You know how it is.

Now with young guns whipping Destroyers around, even a good short game by itself would be insufficient in that division.

I'm thinking for tournament purposes this year will be for dipping my toes in the water with just a few of them, but lots of field work. I'll sit on this while it's winter, but ramp it up in February. I can do standstill putters in the snow.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hey everybody. It's sunny and 35 in SW Michigan. I originally thought I was going to hang it up until winter was over, but it's just like mid-March right now and the extended forecast calls for more of the same.

I took everything out of my bag except for putters, then I grabbed 10 more practice putters. My bag is all non-overstable putters (I left the Pig out of the equation).

I watched Shusterick and Beto before going out there. They contradict each other at least once (Beto said to start with the Disc at your chest. Shusterick said to bend over a little more and release it closer to your core.

I also noticed Shusterick didn't have his front pivot foot staggered to the left. I don't know anymore at this point. Simon Lizotte and Danny Lindahl both have their front pivot feet staggered and that's how I've done it forever at the conclusion of an x-step.

So I set out for the sunny field, put down my mini, placed my heel behind the mini, made sure my stance was like it will eventually be (staggered feet, right pivot foot further left than my back foot) and attempted to focus on all the things that make a smooth throw with a proper weight transfer in the legs, hips open, reach back, etc.

I still don't know if power gripping the putters is right for me. My fingers aren't real long and over the years I usually OAT the hell out of a putter if I try to throw it like a driver. Usually it's a modified half fan grip when I throw putters and mids for touch. The tallness of the putter is an issue. Or maybe it's all in my head? I tried power grips today and it got better.

Nothing changed for distance. I'm still throwing putters about 150-175, but I'm doing it standing still now instead of my walkup and X-step. That's interesting. Some of them were smooth and went there exactly as I aimed. Some of them OAT'ed and fluttered and turned over.

Then on one of them (about the 30th throw) I felt a little twinge/pop in my shoulder. Not terrible, just weird. (I'm 46). The next throw did it again but worse. It feels muscular and it's on the inside toward my pecs. I stopped right there, picked up what I had thrown, and decided to not throw another Disc until this goes away. It's still a little bit there as I type. On the pain scale of 0-10 I'd say it's a 1 or a 2 but I sure as hell don't want this to develop into anything.

Obviously I'm not doing something right.

The kids are in school. I can have them film me this weekend if that shoulder feels 100%.

Thank you for listening. I hope this can help others too.

I won't rest until I'm getting 350' smoothly, accurately and consistently. But first, my shoulder needs to feel 100%.

 

[ray1970]

I'm 49 and play because I enjoy playing. I realize that at my age I'm not going pro and making the tour circuit. I was stuck at that 300 foot plateau for a while and knew there were some things wrong with my form and timing. Rather than start from scratch, I chose to work on small things with my form and timing and now 300 is easy and a good rip for me will go past 350. I honestly don't think I have it in me physically to push 400 feet but I'm okay with that. I can't really birdie a 450 foot par three hole but I'm happy to take a par. It's actually easier for me to birdie a 650 foot par four than a 450 foot par three. I play local tournaments and tags matches just for fun.

I would say don't reinvent the wheel or start over. Take what already works okay for you and work in the small things to gain that added distance.

 

[ray1970]

My issues might be different than yours but the three things that helped me were working on my wrist angle, correcting a problem with dipping my back shoulder, and getting my hips turned sooner and quicker. The wrist angle and shoulder thing helped me keep the nose of the disc down more consistently and the hip rotation helped me get a bit more snap on my throws.

Good luck.

 

[drk_evns]

If only it were that simple.

YES! is the short answer. If you're not breaking 400-450, you're not throwing right. Something must change, and it's going to feel completely different than it does now. NOT because you're doing something drastically wrong, but as we start to build;d muscle memory, doing ANYTHING different feels drastic. This is the inherent problem most people have. They "don't want to lose the progress they have made" but the progress you have made likely doesn't translate anyways.

If it doesn't feel strange, you're not changing enough.

So yes, you should throw out your form and start from scratch, but doing so is much more difficult than it sounds.

 

[SonicGuy]

If you're healthy you should be able to figure out a way to hit 400. I think that's the sweet spot for scoring. Lots of par 3's these days are in the 360-420 foot range, and without a big arm you just can't get the birdie look you need to hang with good players.

I believe this notion is false. The statistics on how pros score on 400' wide open holes is pretty bad. Yeah the top 10 disc golfers in the world are converting at a higher rate, but they are also dragging the statistics up so for the rest of the field the 400' birdie conversion is even more rare. Unless you are saying that the 400' power is more for helping with those 360' holes...

I do think 400' distance is a big help, but more because it cuts down the longer holes into a surefire 3 and allows for inefficient lines up and over or way around.

 

[SonicGuy]

If you're not breaking 400-450, you're not throwing right.

With a Roc, right? :gross:

 

[drk_evns]

With a Roc, right? :gross:

I mean, once you're throwing 450 with a driver, the differences in your discs are less dramatic than you'd expect. I do a lot of 350-380 foot Roc shots just because it's more controllable in most situations.

I'm having a problem throwing under 300 accurately these days because I've disproportionately been practicing my drives for the past 2 years. My putters go far and I love driving with them but my all around game suffers because of my lack of touch training.

This sounds braggy, and I am super pumped I can throw far, but once you figure out the backhand and how it's supposed to work 400 feet is not that impressive. I'm now wishing I did more work on my game rather than just my backhand...

that being said, Simon himself would say "learn how to throw before you learn how to golf."

It CAN be a tough journey. I'm happy I dedicated myself to the task and I'm happy with the results, but was it worth going to the field every day at lunch and not playing many rounds for 2 years??? Debatable for most people.

 

[SonicGuy]

I mean, once you're throwing 450 with a driver, the differences in your discs are less dramatic than you'd expect. I do a lot of 350-380 foot Roc shots just because it's more controllable in most situations.

I'm having a problem throwing under 300 accurately these days because I've disproportionately been practicing my drives for the past 2 years. My putters go far and I love driving with them but my all around game suffers because of my lack of touch training.

This sounds braggy, and I am super pumped I can throw far, but once you figure out the backhand and how it's supposed to work 400 feet is not that impressive. I'm now wishing I did more work on my game rather than just my backhand...

that being said, Simon himself would say "learn how to throw before you learn how to golf."

It CAN be a tough journey. I'm happy I dedicated myself to the task and I'm happy with the results, but was it worth going to the field every day at lunch and not playing many rounds for 2 years??? Debatable for most people.

I think Simon would say if you aren't breaking 500' you aren't throwing right. Back to the field, let us know when you get the hang of it.

 

[UhhNegative]

I think Simon would say if you aren't breaking 500' you aren't throwing right. Back to the field, let us know when you get the hang of it.

He's close to 500' if not already there. When Sidewinder can't even really suggest improvements you know you are there.

I believe this notion is false. The statistics on how pros score on 400' wide open holes is pretty bad. Yeah the top 10 disc golfers in the world are converting at a higher rate, but they are also dragging the statistics up so for the rest of the field the 400' birdie conversion is even more rare. Unless you are saying that the 400' power is more for helping with those 360' holes...

I do think 400' distance is a big help, but more because it cuts down the longer holes into a surefire 3 and allows for inefficient lines up and over or way around.

I'd like to see the stats to back up this idea. It's going to be very course dependent as well. There are some 250' holes that many top pros don't get, yet a wide open 400' hole? Most of the open field is going to have a good chance at a birdie there.