I've been throwing these and I'm super impressed. For someone that can throw 425+ this is the missing link for players wanting an over stable 13 speed disc. When I say overstable I'm not talking about like a Stilleto, think more like a good pop top Destroyer or Force and since they are Star they beat in nice and straight. Some have said these are bricks and I don't agree at all, they have great glide but do require someone with good arm speed.