Stop asking if you are outside the circle!

[Jwalker92]

I begin with a story. Lead card, final round, scores were tight. A player who is notoriously problematic asks if he is outside the circle for a jump putt or not. He was right at the circle's edge, no tassels in the ground.

As I say no, another player says yes. He is confused, beginning to get frustrated, and asks for clarification. The fourth player on the card says he doesn't know, I say just jump it, I don't care. He step putts, misses, rolls to 30, misses the come back putt and takes a bogey.

He's upset, and wants answers. "You guys could have given me a straight answer instead of that back and forth bullsh*t."

It's not my job to help with your decision making on the course. It's not my job to help you avoid breaking the rules. Sure there should be a clear indicator where C1 is on every course, but that's just not how it is. It's up to me to call you on rules violations, that's it. I have a system where I walk-off almost every C2 attempt. Anything 11 steps and over, I jump, anything close or under 11 steps, I treat as a C1 attempt. I don't ask, I don't verify, it's up to my card mates to call me on a foot fault if they believe I broke the rules.

Asking, "am I out" slows down the game, takes pressure off you as a player and puts it on your opponents. Stop it. Take accountability for your lie and your actions, leave me out of it.

End Rant.

 

[jupiterboy]

Seems like you've got the right mindset. Think, act, accept consequences.

I've noticed a general trend with people, however, which is to avoid taking personal responsibility whatever it takes.

 

[ru4por]

Happens all the time. I play AM....the default answer to "am I out", is absolutely. I don't care if you are 20 ft from the basket. I know very few AM's that improve their chances of hitting a putt, with a jump/step putt.

 

[dndelli]

I think I would have to play play devil's advocate here and say that asking the question feels perfectly acceptable depending on what division you are playing in. If the person is playing in Am and only ask the question like once in a round, I wouldn't be annoyed. With the notable caveat that anyone who asks the question needs to actually be willing to hear that the answer might be "no".

In regards to the incident that happened to you on the course, it seems like the real problem had nothing to do with him asking whether he was in or out and everything to do with the fact that he had both already decided he was outside of the circle and afterwards was looking to blame his missed putt afterwards on an external locus of control. I dislike when people constantly try to shift their errors to other people.

It's at that point I would have told him something along the lines of, "You asked for our opinions/to make a group decision and we gave them to you. Please don't passive aggressively try to attack us because we took time to come to a group decision and/or disagreeing with you." And if he kept on I would have either given them a courtesy warning or just texted the TD.

All of that being said, I have never personally asked for clarification outside of a practice round with my buddies. In a tournament, I do tend to lean towards, if I am not absolutely certain I am outside the circle, I'd rather just assume I am inside. Of course I also have no problem chiming in and answering that they are clearly inside the circle when I think they are in. Having been in a similar scenario, I thought the player who almost immediately chimed in their agreement that the putter was outside the circle when they were definitely closer to the 28' mark. Like you I backed down, but our guy chose to just not step putt and actually sunk their putt. So I haven't had to deal with similar backlash yet.

 

[BillFleming]

My default answer is No. If you have to ask me, then you think you might be in C1. I'm not accurate at visually measuring distances and I don't carry a rangefinder. If jump/step putting is that important to you, either carry a rangefinder or step off the distance before jump/step putting.

I'm mostly accurate putting when I'm 15 feet or closer....I don't ask everyone if I'm within 15 feet so I can decide to lay up or go for it.

Personally, I wish the PDGA would disallow jump/step putting.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

My default answer is No. If you have to ask me, then you think you might be in C1. I'm not accurate at visually measuring distances and I don't carry a rangefinder. If jump/step putting is that important to you, either carry a rangefinder or step off the distance before jump/step putting.

I'm mostly accurate putting when I'm 15 feet or closer....I don't ask everyone if I'm within 15 feet so I can decide to lay up or go for it.

Personally, I wish the PDGA would disallow jump/step putting.

I like the last part, or at least combine C1 and C2 for the rules regarding it, so it's a lot less of what the OP describes. As far as I'm concerned C1 as it's defined needs to be marked, and that will help alleviate this issue a bit, though it'll cause more headaches for TDs so...

I think I'm going to just start basing my answer off of who it is and how good of a jump/step putter they are. I never ask, and never jump putt (unless I'm trying to layup from outside C2), since my normal putting stroke/stance is sufficient for use across C1 and C2, with a little modification for the longest putts.

 

[Jwalker92]

. If the person is playing in Am and only ask the question like once in a round, I wouldn't be annoyed. With the notable caveat that anyone who asks the question needs to actually be willing to hear that the answer might be "no".

In my experience, someone who jump putts often, does it multiple times per round and asks if they are out every time. Whether they are 28' or 58'.

 

[sillybizz]

Make any steps past the lie illegal except for the tee pad. Make everyone learn how to throw standstill and also putt without jumping, problem solved.

 

[@CD-]

Just tell them to step it off to make them use their energy to confirm the distance, maybe warning them a 30s time penalty is possible if they have a putting routine as well .

Pushing the putting area out to 12 or 13 meters is one option. Pretty punishing for juniors and newbies though.

 

[Countchunkula]

Just tell them to step it off to make them use their energy to confirm the distance, maybe warning them a 30s time penalty is possible if they have a putting routine as well .

Pushing the putting area out to 12 or 13 meters is one option. Pretty punishing for juniors and newbies though.

Making the circle larger might lead to more am I in/am I out questions. A larger diameter circle would have more area that is in that questionable range, which might lead to more issues.

Paging @Steve West to prove me wrong with a scatter plot of expected shot results.

 

[sisyphus]

First, I don't get all wound up worrying about others' putt mechanics, but do care about pace of play. I'd prefer if the player who even thinks it's marginal would just go ahead and assume they have to deliver a legal putt, and quit wasting everybody's time. But on the other hand, I believe the putt jump to be silly and the jump putt to be illegal by semantic definition. Guys who can throw 400 feet can probably deliver enough power from a standstill to make a 33' foot toss, don't you think?

 

[Sewer bill]

First, I don't get all wound up worrying about others' putt mechanics, but do care about pace of play. I'd prefer if the player who even thinks it's marginal would just go ahead and assume they have to deliver a legal putt, and quit wasting everybody's time. But on the other hand, I believe the putt jump to be silly and the jump putt to be illegal by semantic definition. Guys who can throw 400 feet can probably deliver enough power from a standstill to make a 33' foot toss, don't you think?

It's really only the rare truly push putters who can't putt far without jumping. I have played with old guys who top out in the 250s who could throw 60 footer putts in the same form as their c1 putts.

I agree with all of your points.

The step putt is so egregious to me that I'm tempted to do a running speed flying jump putt everytime I play with someone who does it. Jump putt people seem more often to time it correctly to where they're still behind the lie on their feet when the disc is released it's those step putts that are so clearly thrown ahead of the lie that irk me.

 

[Steve West]

Making the circle larger might lead to more am I in/am I out questions. A larger diameter circle would have more area that is in that questionable range, which might lead to more issues.

Paging @Steve West to prove me wrong with a scatter plot of expected shot results.

You're not wrong, but it's not proportionate to area. There are about 10% more attempts from within 12 meters than from within 10 meters. (About 14% more within 13 meters, and 32% more from within 20 meters.)

 

[Steve West]

It's the thrower's responsibility to know whether they are within 10 meters or not. Just as it is their responsibility to know which tee pad to throw from, which target to go for, whether they are using their own or someone else's thrown disc to determine their lie, etc.



However, good sportsmanship dictates that you should not hide or lie about information that may lead to a penalty. Certainly, if they ask in/out you should give them your honest appraisal of whether you would call a stance violation if they jump- or step-putted from their marker.

 

[EarthRocker]

This kind of discussion is very interesting to me. Because it's not about the rules, it's about 'What Bothers You.' Not "YOU" you, but the general You.

I'm one of those aforementioned old guys who can jump/spush pretty accurately from a good distance out. It's a strong part of my game, where the shot walks the very thin line between a layup and a real run. Like...it will either drop in softly, or land close. And if I'm between C1 and C2, the jump allows me to be super-aggressive and just drill it. And I'll make a lot of them.

My depth perception is pretty wrecked. Standing and looking at the basket, it's very hard for me to be sure of the distance. Spectating from the side, watching someone else, it's very easy to see whether or not they're Inside or Out.

I don't believe there's a right or wrong way to feel here. But I do think that most people who ask the question are honestly wanting to know what the other players are seeing, before the asker inadvertently breaks a rule. There isn't any ulterior motive there; just trying to play a clean game.

 

[foxdawg10]

I begin with a story. Lead card, final round, scores were tight. A player who is notoriously problematic asks if he is outside the circle for a jump putt or not. He was right at the circle's edge, no tassels in the ground.

As I say no, another player says yes. He is confused, beginning to get frustrated, and asks for clarification. The fourth player on the card says he doesn't know, I say just jump it, I don't care. He step putts, misses, rolls to 30, misses the come back putt and takes a bogey.

He's upset, and wants answers. "You guys could have given me a straight answer instead of that back and forth bullsh*t."

It's not my job to help with your decision making on the course. It's not my job to help you avoid breaking the rules. Sure there should be a clear indicator where C1 is on every course, but that's just not how it is. It's up to me to call you on rules violations, that's it. I have a system where I walk-off almost every C2 attempt. Anything 11 steps and over, I jump, anything close or under 11 steps, I treat as a C1 attempt. I don't ask, I don't verify, it's up to my card mates to call me on a foot fault if they believe I broke the rules.

Asking, "am I out" slows down the game, takes pressure off you as a player and puts it on your opponents. Stop it. Take accountability for your lie and your actions, leave me out of it.

End Rant.

Real question. How do you know if he was right at circle's edge, and why would you not want to share that information if he asks. Sure there is nothing in the rules that says you have to help, but to me it is a dick move if you know his exact position, refuse to answer his question, and then call him on a penalty.

The way you describe it, he is simply trying to make sure he is abiding by the rules. I'm not a fan of jump or step putts, but they ARE legal outside the circle, as long as abides by the way the rule is written,

 

[glassila]

I love when someone is about 45 feet out and asks "am I in or out?" I love it!
I also love when someone is at 28-30 feet and they ask if they are in or out and I say "in" and they get mad. I love it!

 

[Jwalker92]

I love when someone is about 45 feet out and asks "am I in or out?" I love it!
I also love when someone is at 28-30 feet and they ask if they are in or out and I say "in" and they get mad. I love it!

This guy gets it.

 

[Biggie_Robs]

I begin with a story. Lead card, final round, scores were tight. A player who is notoriously problematic asks if he is outside the circle for a jump putt or not. He was right at the circle's edge, no tassels in the ground.

As I say no, another player says yes. He is confused, beginning to get frustrated, and asks for clarification. The fourth player on the card says he doesn't know, I say just jump it, I don't care. He step putts, misses, rolls to 30, misses the come back putt and takes a bogey.

He's upset, and wants answers. "You guys could have given me a straight answer instead of that back and forth bullsh*t."

It's not my job to help with your decision making on the course. It's not my job to help you avoid breaking the rules. Sure there should be a clear indicator where C1 is on every course, but that's just not how it is. It's up to me to call you on rules violations, that's it. I have a system where I walk-off almost every C2 attempt. Anything 11 steps and over, I jump, anything close or under 11 steps, I treat as a C1 attempt. I don't ask, I don't verify, it's up to my card mates to call me on a foot fault if they believe I broke the rules.

Asking, "am I out" slows down the game, takes pressure off you as a player and puts it on your opponents. Stop it. Take accountability for your lie and your actions, leave me out of it.

End Rant.

By playing in a tournament, you cannot be left "out of it." You are required to make decisions about stuff like this. Get over whatever made you think that you have no responsibilities outside of your own game during your round.

 

[Jwalker92]

By playing in a tournament, you cannot be left "out of it." You are required to make decisions about stuff like this. Get over whatever made you think that you have no responsibilities outside of your own game during your round.

No, that's simply not true. I am required to observe my card mates and make sure the rules of the game are followed. There is a huge difference between picking a good spot where a disc went out of bounds, and reassuring my opponent that they may or may not be outside C1. If you don't have a good way to determine where 10m is, you just shouldn't step putt.