Tech disc test driven development

[Sewer bill]

Interesting how both of them appear to be backwards from what they say.
View attachment 336762

That green to red line changes depending on desired shot shape/hyzer angle. I'll show you next time.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Possible dynamic alignment change as arm/disc/gravity interact through the move?

Yeah that's very interesting what @sidewinder22 posted. My pic of Gannon is from the most recent tournament so it's possible he's changed it since then, or, also possible is starting the grip alignment one way, but then as you close your hand and firmly grip the disc naturally realigns differently.

That's why on my picture with explanation text I point out that you might want to specific initial alignment vs final.

When I tested F1P-3 I initially wanted to test a bigger deviation from F1P0 in that negative palm direction, but whenever I initially set F1P-5 it kept wanting to move to F1P-3 unless I forced my fingers to have absolutely no slanting around the rim which was super awkward so I decided to not test that one.

I just re-tested to see if my results of -4 nose angle with F1P-3 while not actively trying to pour the tea or turn the key were reproducible, and I got -3 nose on average this time, so it seems there's something this alignment is doing that makes nose down easier than my default F1P0. It may not be the alignment itself but more how it changes where my grip pressure is because when I increased grip pressure which bent the disc more than it does in my normal grip, I started getting some throws up to -6, again without trying to do anything else for nose down.

Here are the new stats from today's retest, making a video later. Last time it was -4 now it's -3 so I have an increase in confidence that it wasn't just a fluke in the previous test.:






Old no pour F1P0


In October (1 month after I started playing) I posted a thread about the Eagle grip discrepancy, lol, now I can finally get some interesting data on it at least for how it affects my stats in my current form.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That green to red line changes depending on desired shot shape/hyzer angle. I'll show you next time.

I only changed my hyer angle a few degrees which could easily have just been normal variance and not even the grip itself.

The green F1P0 to red F1P-3 / F1P-4 alignment does look like it will reduce hyzer but it didn't noticeably affect that in my tests. But the simple appearance that it looks more anhyzer can easily influence you to throw more anhyzer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I haven't looked at the footage yet but the F1P-3 grip I think naturally makes me pour the tea without thinking about doing it because I have a strong preference to start holding the disc parallel to the ground as a sort of reference / default orientation habit.

But also, with F1P0 my thumb is directly on top of my index finger and when I press harder with the thumb it doesn't naturally increase my desire to pour the tea, whereas with F1P-3 my thumb ends up in front of my index finger which when more thumb pressure is applied, naturally makes my wrist want to pour the tea since there is nothing under the thumb to resist against the thumb pressure.

However, I've rarely ever gotten -4 or less when trying pour the tea without something else extra added like an inverted swoop.

 

[Brychanus]

Theoretically I think since you can "crack a whip" multiple ways and the flow of the move can take significant redirections late in the move, the space of acceptable grip alignments and their dynamics is probably pretty large as long as they have the desired end effect...

 

[SocraDeez]

Theoretically I think since you can "crack a whip" multiple ways and the flow of the move can take significant redirections late in the move, the space of acceptable grip alignments and their dynamics is probably pretty large as long as they have the desired end effect...

Shoot, now that's a reasonable freakin' analysis. "Bill Rawls, you are a reasonable fucking guy."

Neil: the most important grip factor is how it works within the greater biomechanical system to balance/counter the weight/geometry of the tool being wielded. Here's the slowplastic form thread grip epiphany video for anybody that hasn't seen it:

.

One educational exercise might be to grip a tool or disc and then try to move the balance around - e.g. feel that counterbalance in your fingers, then try to move it to your wrist, then try to move it to the elbow, and then the shoulder. Different parts of the arm-disc unit provide varying degrees/roles of counterbalance at different parts of the swing - it moves around. Check this high speed camera footage of a Jesper Lundmark throw. Note how the grip/balance dynamics are pretty static until force/energy starts transferring into the arm-disc-unit system. As force/energy hits and flows through the shoulder, upper arm, elbow, lower arm etc, we start to see the wing of the disc doing some crazy dance moves prior to final ejection.



From this dynamic balance within a greater biomechanical system perspective, we might say that a clear "DO NOT DO" would be to bury the disc into the palm because this cuts the tool weight off from the rest of the system we've sketched - i.e. the part of the disc we are throwing is always being counterbalanced by the hand/wrist, which prevents the tool weight from interacting/communicating with the elbow, shoulder, etc.

Obligatory cross-sport reference: NFL QBs talk about grip, emphasize wide variety of preferences:



Here's the article that goes along with the video: Get a grip: How Mahomes, Brady, Lamar and 10 other QBs fling the football. Totally on brand quote from Big Ben lol: "I just grab it. I have no idea. I did an interview not long ago. Someone asked me, "How do you hold it? How many fingers are on the laces?" I said, "I have no idea." 'Cause I have to grab it to know."

More detail about Patrick Mahomes unusual grip, mentioned at the end of the above video, linked below (sorry dudes, it's TikTok). Most QBs don't "palm" the ball - they leave a little air pocket in there. But Mahomes likes it closer to his palm. Maybe the above mentioned clear "DO NOT DO" is a worthless maxim after all.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Shoot, now that's a reasonable freakin' analysis. "Bill Rawls, you are a reasonable fucking guy."

Neil: the most important grip factor is how it works within the greater biomechanical system to balance/counter the weight/geometry of the tool being wielded. Here's the slowplastic form thread grip epiphany video for anybody that hasn't seen it:

.

It's fascinating to me where he believes the nose is. This is where I've determined on my own is where the nose of the disc is for me, since the disc is coming out at roughly the 10 o'clock position, and a balance of "turn the key" and "pour the coffee" cues have led me to some good results, despite a sub-optimal swing. Also my grip is (if I'm reading the nomenclature right) F1P0, which is essentially that green line in Neil's image.

 

[itlnstln]

Shoot, now that's a reasonable freakin' analysis. "Bill Rawls, you are a reasonable fucking guy."

Neil: the most important grip factor is how it works within the greater biomechanical system to balance/counter the weight/geometry of the tool being wielded. Here's the slowplastic form thread grip epiphany video for anybody that hasn't seen it:

.

One educational exercise might be to grip a tool or disc and then try to move the balance around - e.g. feel that counterbalance in your fingers, then try to move it to your wrist, then try to move it to the elbow, and then the shoulder. Different parts of the arm-disc unit provide varying degrees/roles of counterbalance at different parts of the swing - it moves around. Check this high speed camera footage of a Jesper Lundmark throw. Note how the grip/balance dynamics are pretty static until force/energy starts transferring into the arm-disc-unit system. As force/energy hits and flows through the shoulder, upper arm, elbow, lower arm etc, we start to see the wing of the disc doing some crazy dance moves prior to final ejection.



From this dynamic balance within a greater biomechanical system perspective, we might say that a clear "DO NOT DO" would be to bury the disc into the palm because this cuts the tool weight off from the rest of the system we've sketched - i.e. the part of the disc we are throwing is always being counterbalanced by the hand/wrist, which prevents the tool weight from interacting/communicating with the elbow, shoulder, etc.

Obligatory cross-sport reference: NFL QBs talk about grip, emphasize wide variety of preferences:



Here's the article that goes along with the video: Get a grip: How Mahomes, Brady, Lamar and 10 other QBs fling the football. Totally on brand quote from Big Ben lol: "I just grab it. I have no idea. I did an interview not long ago. Someone asked me, "How do you hold it? How many fingers are on the laces?" I said, "I have no idea." 'Cause I have to grab it to know."

More detail about Patrick Mahomes unusual grip, mentioned at the end of the above video, linked below (sorry dudes, it's TikTok). Most QBs don't "palm" the ball - they leave a little air pocket in there. But Mahomes likes it closer to his palm. Maybe the above mentioned clear "DO NOT DO" is a worthless maxim after all.

Re: the slowplastic video - I'm curious if that slight shift in grip is related somehow to the "Thumb-push" mechanic* Blake T referred to back in the day. The slightly rotated hand position makes that mechanic more obvious. Early in my playing days, I played around with getting my hand more on the top of the disc, but my reasoning was different (read: flawed). The idea was that it seemed like the disc flew better because the disc was more in an "anhyzer" position. Maybe I was on the right track. I abandoned it, because I have baby fingers and it was hard to grip anything wider than a Teebird

* The OG... key-turn mechanic

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Shoot, now that's a reasonable freakin' analysis. "Bill Rawls, you are a reasonable fucking guy."

Neil: the most important grip factor is how it works within the greater biomechanical system to balance/counter the weight/geometry of the tool being wielded. Here's the slowplastic form thread grip epiphany video for anybody that hasn't seen it:

.

One educational exercise might be to grip a tool or disc and then try to move the balance around - e.g. feel that counterbalance in your fingers, then try to move it to your wrist, then try to move it to the elbow, and then the shoulder. Different parts of the arm-disc unit provide varying degrees/roles of counterbalance at different parts of the swing - it moves around. Check this high speed camera footage of a Jesper Lundmark throw. Note how the grip/balance dynamics are pretty static until force/energy starts transferring into the arm-disc-unit system. As force/energy hits and flows through the shoulder, upper arm, elbow, lower arm etc, we start to see the wing of the disc doing some crazy dance moves prior to final ejection.



From this dynamic balance within a greater biomechanical system perspective, we might say that a clear "DO NOT DO" would be to bury the disc into the palm because this cuts the tool weight off from the rest of the system we've sketched - i.e. the part of the disc we are throwing is always being counterbalanced by the hand/wrist, which prevents the tool weight from interacting/communicating with the elbow, shoulder, etc.

Obligatory cross-sport reference: NFL QBs talk about grip, emphasize wide variety of preferences:



Here's the article that goes along with the video: Get a grip: How Mahomes, Brady, Lamar and 10 other QBs fling the football. Totally on brand quote from Big Ben lol: "I just grab it. I have no idea. I did an interview not long ago. Someone asked me, "How do you hold it? How many fingers are on the laces?" I said, "I have no idea." 'Cause I have to grab it to know."

More detail about Patrick Mahomes unusual grip, mentioned at the end of the above video, linked below (sorry dudes, it's TikTok). Most QBs don't "palm" the ball - they leave a little air pocket in there. But Mahomes likes it closer to his palm. Maybe the above mentioned clear "DO NOT DO" is a worthless maxim after all.

Very interesting.

I think it's very common for pros to put the disc down the center groove of the palm and have it firmly up against the palm. It seems the most intuitive since that part of the palm creates a seemingly perfect slot for the disc to be secured and seems to align it with the forearm.

It's very hard to tighten your grip without bringing the disc more firmly into your palm since your fingers pull it that way and I think it's intuitive to secure the disc so it doesn't move in unintended ways.

In the Jesper clip, I don't see anything strange or surprising with the wing, it just looks like common supination + a shifting perspective from the rotation.

What you said about having it deep in the palm "cuts the tool weight off from the rest of the system" I agree with for some types of tools. I don't have any hammers but I can imagine wanting some space there to allow the hammer to see-saw itself. However, with my pickleball paddle (and racketball), having the butt of the handle in the palm feels like it gives a leverage / counter balance point that helps particularly for backhand wrist roll action. If I hold the head of the paddle with my other hand to resist my backhand wrist roll action, I feel more my palm start to apply more leverage to the butt of the handle.

 

[itlnstln]

The off-the-palm aspect might also be an optimization that yields very little ROI for most pros. Robbie Bratton and Aaron Gossage use the 2-finger grip slowplastic refers to for that leverage optimization

 

[disc-golf-neil]

My reproducibility check from the last test:

@itlnstln that hand more on top of the disc and also making the thumb further out in front of the index finger produced more nose down for me. Also it didn't meaningfully increase anhyzer.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Gossage's grip, thumb is in front of the index finger a decent bit it seems.

His palm placement looks pretty much center-groove or not far off.

 

[RowingBoats]

The off-the-palm aspect might also be an optimization that yields very little ROI for most pros. Robbie Bratton and Aaron Gossage use the 2-finger grip slowplastic refers to for that leverage optimization

Everyone should try this grip, as well as the more 'hand on top of the disc' grips imo. You can get them all to work well.

 

[RowingBoats]

Gossage's grip, thumb is in front of the index finger a decent bit it seems.

His palm placement looks pretty much center-groove or not far off.

View attachment 336821

This is exactly (or as near as I can tell) how I hold with two fingers as well. It is absolutely sick for drivers, I just have this weird aversion to having multiple grips so I moved away from it for the time being.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here it looks like Aaron is actually around P-2 palm placement.

 

[itlnstln]

My reproducibility check from the last test:

@itlnstln that hand more on top of the disc and also making the thumb further out in front of the index finger produced more nose down for me. Also it didn't meaningfully increase anhyzer.

That's what I meant when I mentioned my reasoning was flawed. It was most likely more nose down, not anhyzer. Those were my salad days, to be sure

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Everyone should try this grip, as well as the more 'hand on top of the disc' grips imo. You can get them all to work well.

I don't even know how to set an off the palm grip, it feels untenable to grip it hard without it being pulled into the palm.

 

[RowingBoats]

Here it looks like Aaron is actually around P-2 palm placement.
View attachment 336823

I cannot comfortably (or seemingly effectively either) go past the P2 spot with a two finger grip. It feels horrible to me so I have never tried it but I imagine its pure nose up with the way my hands work.

 

[SocraDeez]

Neil: you've missed the point. No prescription was written for palm placement.

Here's a corollary: anybody who has spent time around really good Frisbee players has also surely observed how much they seem to love holding, handling, flipping, spinning, tossing, or playing with a disc in hand. Hand a Frisbee to a beginner, they're liable to clutch it like pearls. Hand a Frisbee to an expert, they're liable to spin it or flip it as soon as touch it. There's deeper meaning here, Neil, but I can't neatly diagram it for you.

 

[RowingBoats]

Neil: you've missed the point. No prescription was written for palm placement.

Here's a corollary: anybody who has spent time around really good Frisbee players has also surely observed how much they seem to love holding, handling, flipping, spinning, tossing, or playing with a disc in hand. Hand a Frisbee to a beginner, they're liable to clutch it like pearls. Hand a Frisbee to an expert, they're liable to spin it or flip it as soon as touch it. There's deeper meaning here, Neil, but I can't neatly diagram it for you.

Sheep said something like "The game gets more fun when you start flying the discs rather than throwing them."

And I think that statement is worth some thought.

To add to this for my own personal journey, the game also got a lot more fun once I got through the initial hump of information overload. It is still a struggle sometimes, but getting past thinking about your body AT ALL when you throw a disc is one of the biggest leaps.

I understand why people spend so much time looking at human bodies throwing discs, but you absolutely need to leave that behind when you play eventually.