Tell Me What I Need to Work on

[iacas]

I'm kind of unconvinced on this one.

Then look at some video.

I think the push is around here:

That's still part of the run-up. And even then, there may be little actual pushing - their momentum carries them forward. Stand with your feet wide apart and then lift up your right foot six inches - don't push off with your left foot and don't shift your CG. Does your right foot eventually come down even though you aren't pushing? Of course. And you didn't even have momentum first.

When you do a baseball swing, you most definitely push with your rear leg (specifically the ball of your rear foot), and you generally lower your center of gravity while doing it. If you do the same swing WITHOUT that slight moment of push from your back leg, you can feel you don't get the same power.

That helps make my point - I said that the baseball swing cannot even be compared to the golf swing. And the disc golf throwing motion can't be compared to the golf swing either. They're both somewhat off topic.

Well, pushing horizontally is literally impossible without gravity. You need traction and that traction comes from being pulled downward by gravity!

That's not what I'm talking about. Especially since the trail foot is often in the air or sliding along the ground from the reach back to well into the follow-through.

Like a fair amount of pros, he's got a hop that lifts him up into the air and then down into that rear leg plant. The only logical thing that can help, from what I know of disc golf (which, granted, is not much) is that he's using that additional downward force for traction and to spring up against during the push, as you do with a baseball swing, a baseball pitch, etc.

The hop is well before the reach-back. From the reach-back to well into the follow-through, his height doesn't change much at all.

I disagree that we're seeing added "traction" due to downward force (obviously when someone bends his knees and "compresses" into the ground, he actually get less traction during that action) because throughout the throwing motion (reach back to well into follow-through) the disc golfer is remaining roughly the same height - he's simply rotating and translating different parts of his body around or forward.

As I said before, if we're talking about stuff before the reach-back, or even distance throws, then that's a different topic than what I'm discussing. If that's what y'all are discussing, I'll bow out.

 

[sidewinder22]

So I'm asking that question.

Yes, I originally talked about how golfers compress and extend in the golf swing, but the purpose there was to illustrate that the planes are different and that you cannot compare the two, just as comparing the golf swing to the baseball swing often fails - different goals, different planes of motion, different criteria (ball not sitting on the ground being key in baseball), etc.

So if we can limit the discussion to disc golf, and how exactly pros are "compressing" and "exploding" and how in the heck gravity plays any role in doing anything except constantly pulling down on the thrower and the disc (while in their hands and in the air), that'd be great, because to this point, the advice seems like the "this is what it feels like" or "this is what pros say it feels like" type of advice rather than what actually happens.

Feels are often wrong. I asked Will Schusterick if he was pushing with his rear foot all the way until he released the disc, and he replied strongly affirmatively, but clearly he's not. His feel isn't reality.

So my question still hasn't been answered: how are the disc golfers using "compression/explosion" or "gravity" when they aren't changing the levels of their body parts appreciably (gravity operates vertically). And how does one supposedly use "gravity" or this "compressing against the ground" to propel a disc roughly 90° to the direction in which gravity operates?

I agree that some of the distance drivers in the earlier video are "springing up," but to my eyes and frame-by-frame observation it's well after the disc golf has left their hands before they even begin to spring up.

I agree with you about Will and the rear foot. I feel the same exact thing in my FH, but clearly my foot has left the ground, it gets pulled/dragged forward behind the front foot so it's still countering the throw, but the rear foot is the main driving source to initiate the throw much like this:


So using gravity in the throw, think about a roller coaster and how your body your body feels acceleration changes. Your body can't feel velocity at all; it can only feel change in velocity, aka acceleration. Wherever you are on Earth, gravity is pulling you down toward the ground. But the force you actually notice isn't this downward pull, it's the upward pressure of the ground underneath you. The ground stops your descent to the center of the planet. It pushes up on your feet, which push up on the bones in your legs, which push up on your rib cage and so on. This is the feeling of weight. At every point on a roller-coaster ride, gravity is pulling you straight down. The other force acting on you is acceleration. When you are riding in a coaster car that is traveling at a constant speed, you only feel the downward force of gravity. But as the car speeds up or slows down, you feel pressed against your seat or the restraining bar. Add in the twists and turns and you are being accelerated in all different directions. You feel this force because your inertia is separate from that of the coaster car. Your internal organs feel pressed against the ribs.

The purpose of the coaster's initial ascent is to build up a sort of reservoir of potential energy. The concept of potential energy, often referred to as energy of position, is very simple: As the coaster gets higher in the air, gravity can pull it down a greater distance. As the train starts down the hill, this potential energy is converted into kinetic energy and the train speeds up. At the bottom of the hill, there is maximum kinetic energy and little potential energy. You will weight more than your weight and feel very heavy at the bottom of the track as acceleration changes.

The coaster tracks(your legs) serve to channel this force, they control the way the coaster cars(your spine) fall. If the tracks slope down(rear leg), gravity pulls the front of the car toward the ground, so it accelerates. If the tracks tilt up(front leg), gravity applies a downward force on the back of the coaster, so it decelerates. There is a ton of weight force felt from that deceleration and you must compress or thrust against it or collapse.

"Air time" has a strange effect on your body because your body is not completely* solid, it is composed of many loosely connected parts. When your body is accelerated, each part of your body is accelerated individually. Normally, all the parts of your body are pushing on each other because of the constant force of gravity. But in the "free-fall" state of plummeting down a hill, there is hardly any net force acting on you. In this case, the various pieces of your body are not pushing on each other as much. They are all, essentially, weightless, each falling individually inside your body.

So as your spine moves forward over the rear leg, the whole spine(center of gravity) falls forward and down as the rear leg guides it by changing the leg angle. Once the spine falls past a certain point of the rear leg, the leg must provide thrust against the ground to keep it from collapsing and drive the spine(cog) forward. The front leg has to support your spine from falling over forward and transfer this energy and redirect it. The front leg either collapses not transferring energy through body, or it stiffens/straightens which is also a squatting/thrusting force. The angle of the front leg is not straight up/down either, it's angled like 45 degrees to catch your mass moving forward and down and clear the front hip. So the squat/thrust is as about as much vertical as horizontal(backwards), otherwise your front leg and spine would be collapsing. It's like you reached the bottom of the roller coaster track and it begins to go back up. You feel as much "weight" from the inertia of your internal organs being braced(stopped forward/horizontal) against the front leg as do from the earth pushing up vertically against the leg which is super juiced from falling.

If there is no compression, or squat/thrust during this throw, then what is causing him to jump or spring up like a compressed spring in the finish? It's not all vertical compression due to the angle of the front leg and forward momentum, but it feels vertical because you can only apply pressure against the ground and of the extra horizontal G forces against the angle of the leg and spine in a dynamic balanced posture. So when you are balanced dynamically you can be leaning like a biker turning, the biker feels the accleration through the lean which feels straight up/down to the biker in his dynamically balanced posture, but to the on looker it appears more horizontal.


Val actually jumps up/forward through the hit similarly to Lisa Longball if she had more forward momentum:

 

[iacas]

I agree with you about Will and the rear foot. I feel the same exact thing in my FH, but clearly my foot has left the ground, it gets pulled/dragged forward behind the front foot so it's still countering the throw, but the rear foot is the main driving source to initiate the throw much like this:

Initiate yes. It is responsible for the last jump in lateral translation (horizontal) speed. But I've been talking about reach-back to release (or beyond), and even the submariner doesn't do much there.

The other force acting on you is acceleration.

Acceleration is not a force (it's the result of unbalanced forces, to keep it simple). The force of gravity is pulling us downward with constant acceleration right now. Earth pushes back. Forces are equal, no velocity change.

The purpose of the coaster's initial ascent is to build up a sort of reservoir of potential energy. The concept of potential energy, often referred to as energy of position, is very simple: As the coaster gets higher in the air, gravity can pull it down a greater distance. As the train starts down the hill, this potential energy is converted into kinetic energy and the train speeds up. At the bottom of the hill, there is maximum kinetic energy and little potential energy. You will weight more than your weight and feel very heavy at the bottom of the track as acceleration changes.

That's all well and good, but again, the disc golfer is not throwing downward, and if they maintain the same level from reach-back to follow-through, they've not used the potential energy they had when hopping.

It'd be like saying you should jump as high as you can, land, then do your usual run-up and find that you throw the disc farther. You obviously know that's not true.

The coaster tracks(your legs) serve to channel this force, they control the way the coaster cars(your spine) fall. If the tracks slope down(rear leg), gravity pulls the front of the car toward the ground, so it accelerates. If the tracks tilt up(front leg), gravity applies a downward force on the back of the coaster, so it decelerates. There is a ton of weight force felt from that deceleration and you must compress or thrust against it or collapse.

The amount of horizontal speed you can add by letting your CG "fall" (from gravity) during a disc golf throwing motion is negligible… particularly when nothing falls (drops, changes height).

So as your spine moves forward over the rear leg, the whole spine(center of gravity) falls forward and down as the rear leg guides it by changing the leg angle. Once the spine falls past a certain point of the rear leg, the leg must provide thrust against the ground to keep it from collapsing and drive the spine(cog) forward.

Again, the amount of horizontal speed you can add by "falling forward" is minimal, particularly since planting your front foot stops the "falling forward" process, and the rear foot spinning out or flipping up in the air puts an end to any and all ability to push with the rear foot. The rear foot becomes "unweighted" very early on in the disc golf throwing motion (around or just after the reach-back in many players throwing drives - obviously for stand-still throws they leave the foot on the ground often, but they also obviously don't push off much there either).

The front leg has to support your spine from falling over forward and transfer this energy and redirect it. The front leg either collapses not transferring energy through body, or it stiffens/straightens which is also a squatting/thrusting force. The angle of the front leg is not straight up/down either, it's angled like 45 degrees to catch your mass moving forward and down and clear the front hip. So the squat/thrust is as about as much vertical as horizontal(backwards), otherwise your front leg and spine would be collapsing. It's like you reached the bottom of the roller coaster track and it begins to go back up. You feel as much "weight" from the inertia of your internal organs being braced(stopped forward/horizontal) against the front leg as do from the earth pushing up vertically against the leg which is super juiced from falling.

Your leg isn't "super juiced" from falling. You've not only had almost no time to fall, you've not fallen very far at all.

The force you're feeling in the extending of the front leg is converted into rotational speed. It's a force generated by extension of the knee - your muscles. The horizontal speed you've built up by your run-up increases the force you feel in your foot (since your leg is, as you point out, about 45° or whatever - it's absorbing some of that horizontal speed, with the rest ideally continuing in your upper body to help propel the disc).

If there is no compression, or squat/thrust during this throw, then what is causing him to jump or spring up like a compressed spring in the finish?

Simply the fact that he wants to stand up and not fall over. You can be out of position when forces (rotational, translational, etc.) are acting on your body, but if you maintain some of those positions once you've stopped spinning, running forward, etc. then you're going to fall if your CG is not located over or between points of contact with the ground.

These pros are "springing up" WELL AFTER the disc has been released. What they're doing then is just to stand there and watch the disc. It has about as much bearing on the flight of their disc and the power put into the disc as when they sneeze two months later at home or not.

These guys are just re-gaining balance after their throws slow down and near coming to a stop: http://cl.ly/image/3m1H3u2F3s3D . They're not "springing up."

Again, if you're talking about distance throws, for example, then it's a different beast: http://cl.ly/image/35173w0s0Z08 .

In that image you can see he's still in the process of extending his knee, which will add force vertically, and primarily will really help SNAP (in a good way) the hips around ROTATIONALLY. It's the combination of basically jumping on his one knee (his right knee) and the momentum of his arm swinging upward that causes him to get into the air (his jump would be less impressive if he maintained a straight right leg, of course - his tailbone doesn't raise much, and his head goes up because he releases lateral flexion in his spine http://cl.ly/image/2q1f2V3f0m18 ).

Val actually jumps up/forward through the hit similarly to Lisa Longball if she had more forward momentum:

I don't see it: http://cl.ly/image/1k0x1j3l3X2H http://cl.ly/image/2z0Y3H3g3V2f .

If anything, I'd say she could probably add some rotational speed if she were able to extend her knee more, but that's the knee on which she has a brace, so that might be asking too much of her.

----------

My summary: I think you're attributing entirely too much to the role gravity plays in disc golf. Disc golf remains largely a horizontal (and a rotational) activity, and the amount that gravity adds to those by "falling" before you plant your front foot is negligible.

Obviously gravity contributes to friction, but disc golfers are not adding a ton of downward force for the purposes of increasing traction. What they have during their run-up is enough.

And again, obviously you feel a LOT of force in your front foot, because it's not only opposing (via friction) your run-up (horizontal speed) somewhat (since it's planted at 45° or so), but because you're actively extending your knee to help speed up rotationally. In distance throws, this snapping can also lead to a small leap, and to a little added speed to the disc because the launch angle is more vertical in a distance throw than a "golf line" throw.

I added these last bits in the edit window so I apologize if I was short or mistyped anything as I was in a hurry.

 

[iacas]

Also, this is fun, and I love discussing the "theoretical" and the actual physics and mechanics, but I also feel guilty as the OP is probably wondering WTF happened to his thread.

Sorry.

 

[danostrowski]

That helps make my point - I said that the baseball swing cannot even be compared to the golf swing.

Well, you can compare whatever you like. You've asserted it's invalid, but that's irrelevant to what I was saying.

The intent of me saying that was to illustrate the point that in both of these moves (which are somewhat similar) the push may be so subtle that catching it directly in stills or on camera isn't really possible.

Whether/when this push happens, or how important it is... I dunno, man, I can't throw properly, myself.

I'm really tired of this thread and I don't feel like anything's being learned so I'll just come back at the end. Peace.

 

[iacas]

The intent of me saying that was to illustrate the point that in both of these moves (which are somewhat similar) the push may be so subtle that catching it directly in stills or on camera isn't really possible.

It's more likely that it isn't happening at all. Feels aren't real. Top level players (in any sport) are often more unaware of how "wrong" their feels are (not "wrong" for them, but "wrong" in terms of whether they're actually happening or not) than the average players. Heck, Will said he's pushing off his left foot all the way through to his release… and yet it's in the air, so that's not true.

I'm really tired of this thread and I don't feel like anything's being learned so I'll just come back at the end. Peace.

Honestly I think we should all do that, so the OP can have his thread back. I'll stop replying if everyone stops responding to me or quoting me. Deal?

OP, how's your practice going?

 

[tylerc]

ive been enjoying the read to be honest its an interesting conversation for me hah gives me a lot to think about during the dull college courses. but I have been working on more of the same things and have really been gaining consistency and power I "feel" not sure if that is translating to actual distance. I still am coming over the top/crashing the upper body over a lot I have yet to try changing how my feet line up cuz I don't wanna mess with that on the course. I also been working on putting a lot I putted for 2 hours yesterday and my left leg is sore today from all the weight shifting that I was trying to workon/ add to my putt but that made getting the putts to the basket on 35 footers effortless where as before I couldn't get them there with out losing accuracy

 

[sidewinder22]

Initiate yes. It is responsible for the last jump in lateral translation (horizontal) speed. But I've been talking about reach-back to release (or beyond), and even the submariner doesn't do much there.

Disc golfers don't really reachback, they stay back with disc and stride forward like a hitter. When a disc golfer jumps or rises during the x-step the disc doesn't move any further backward into a "reachback".

Acceleration is not a force (it's the result of unbalanced forces, to keep it simple). The force of gravity is pulling us downward with constant acceleration right now. Earth pushes back. Forces are equal, no velocity change.

Newton's second law of motion describes the relationship between force and acceleration. They are directly proportional. If you increase the force applied to an object, the acceleration of that object increases by the same factor. In short, force equals mass times acceleration.

That's all well and good, but again, the disc golfer is not throwing downward, and if they maintain the same level from reach-back to follow-through, they've not used the potential energy they had when hopping.

I disagree. They have transferred that energy into greater ground force from reach back to follow through and created more inertia and lag. Even if they remain level, there is a thrusting force against the front hip and shoulder. The arm swings under the shoulder plane.

It'd be like saying you should jump as high as you can, land, then do your usual run-up and find that you throw the disc farther. You obviously know that's not true.

You can jump in the backswing from a standstill and generate more force.

The amount of horizontal speed you can add by letting your CG "fall" (from gravity) during a disc golf throwing motion is negligible… particularly when nothing falls (drops, changes height).

Again, the amount of horizontal speed you can add by "falling forward" is minimal, particularly since planting your front foot stops the "falling forward" process, and the rear foot spinning out or flipping up in the air puts an end to any and all ability to push with the rear foot. The rear foot becomes "unweighted" very early on in the disc golf throwing motion (around or just after the reach-back in many players throwing drives - obviously for stand-still throws they leave the foot on the ground often, but they also obviously don't push off much there either).

Your leg isn't "super juiced" from falling. You've not only had almost no time to fall, you've not fallen very far at all.

I disagree. It's more about efficiency. It's just like a roller coaster speeding up during the fall. Also when you lower your center of gravity you have more leverage. Low man wins in most sports of leverage.

When you say the rear foot becomes unweighted early in the throw, it's because there's more lag between the lower and upper body. The lower body is moving/driving forward while the upper body is turning back.

The force you're feeling in the extending of the front leg is converted into rotational speed. It's a force generated by extension of the knee - your muscles. The horizontal speed you've built up by your run-up increases the force you feel in your foot (since your leg is, as you point out, about 45° or whatever - it's absorbing some of that horizontal speed, with the rest ideally continuing in your upper body to help propel the disc).

I agree with this.

Simply the fact that he wants to stand up and not fall over. You can be out of position when forces (rotational, translational, etc.) are acting on your body, but if you maintain some of those positions once you've stopped spinning, running forward, etc. then you're going to fall if your CG is not located over or between points of contact with the ground.

These pros are "springing up" WELL AFTER the disc has been released. What they're doing then is just to stand there and watch the disc. It has about as much bearing on the flight of their disc and the power put into the disc as when they sneeze two months later at home or not.

I don't see it as, "well after", it's the continuation of a process.

I don't see it: http://cl.ly/image/1k0x1j3l3X2H http://cl.ly/image/2z0Y3H3g3V2f .

If anything, I'd say she could probably add some rotational speed if she were able to extend her knee more, but that's the knee on which she has a brace, so that might be asking too much of her.

These show Val squatting and thrusting better:

My summary: I think you're attributing entirely too much to the role gravity plays in disc golf. Disc golf remains largely a horizontal (and a rotational) activity, and the amount that gravity adds to those by "falling" before you plant your front foot is negligible.

Obviously gravity contributes to friction, but disc golfers are not adding a ton of downward force for the purposes of increasing traction. What they have during their run-up is enough.

And again, obviously you feel a LOT of force in your front foot, because it's not only opposing (via friction) your run-up (horizontal speed) somewhat (since it's planted at 45° or so), but because you're actively extending your knee to help speed up rotationally. In distance throws, this snapping can also lead to a small leap, and to a little added speed to the disc because the launch angle is more vertical in a distance throw than a "golf line" throw.

I added these last bits in the edit window so I apologize if I was short or mistyped anything as I was in a hurry.

I think you downplay too much the role gravity plays. Pretty much every big arm jumps during the x-step and falls/lowers into the transition, especially the shorter big arms that aren't long armed leverage monkeys. The vertical drop adds speed horizontally like a roller coaster and is more compact/efficient. It also adds lag from inertia. I will add that jumping in the x-step also allows the body to pivot freely backward as you move forward, so you can keep things more compact.

For S&G here's a range of drives, and standstills of Brinster, IMO the most efficient thrower and his followthrough always telegraphs the line.

 

[iacas]

Disc golfers don't really reachback

That's just what it's called, and you know that.

Newton's second law of motion describes the relationship between force and acceleration.

I said acceleration wasn't a force. It's not. It's the result of a force. F=ma? C'mon. That's like middle school level physics.

They have transferred that energy into greater ground force from reach back to follow through and created more inertia and lag. Even if they remain level, there is a thrusting force against the front hip and shoulder. The arm swings under the shoulder plane.

You didn't actually say anything there. They're running forward. That creates the inertia. They turn back. They pull through and fling things forward using forward speed and rotational speed. Gravity plays very little role in that. They've not appreciably changed their potential energy (they've changed their kinetic energy a good deal, and the kinetic energy of the disc - that's kind of the point) because by the time they actually begin moving the disc forward, they're maintaining consistent levels. There's no acceleration vertically - upwards or downwards - because the earth is simply supporting their weight.

The GRF under the front foot spikes, from the horizontal translation and the extension, but it doesn't elevate anything so much as it does to aid in kicking up rotational speed.

I disagree. It's more about efficiency. It's just like a roller coaster speeding up during the fall. Also when you lower your center of gravity you have more leverage. Low man wins in most sports of leverage.

It's not like a roller coaster speeding up during the fall - a roller coaster has seconds and falls hundreds of feet. A disc golfer falls a few inches and does so in a fraction of a second. They're not appreciably adding speed from the effects of gravity.

When you say the rear foot becomes unweighted early in the throw, it's because there's more lag between the lower and upper body. The lower body is moving/driving forward while the upper body is turning back.

That's not why. It has far more to do with the fact that kinetic energy translates into GRF through the FRONT foot and the rear knee is increasing in flex that unweights the back foot.

I don't see it as, "well after", it's the continuation of a process.

The disc is 50 feet away before the disc golfer changes his levels. In some there's a little extension of the front knee - the four throwers in that one video don't extend that knee until WELL into the follow through as they're coming to a stop and look to regain balance (i.e. not be bending over or forward a bunch).

It's a continuation of a process just the same as them going back and picking up their backpack and walking after their drive - it has no effect on the throw itself. To have an effect on the throw, the action needs to occur while the disc is still under the golfer's control - in his hand.

These show Val squatting and thrusting better

I agree, they do, she's doing a better job of using the extension of her front knee to kick up rotational speed. As I pointed out, she's injured now. But you're still talking about inches, and the extension of the knee still primarily kicks up rotational speed. Vertical speed doesn't do much to aid a disc golf throw. Distance throws, again, because of their higher vertical launch angle, sure. But I've said that many times now.

I think you downplay too much the role gravity plays. Pretty much every big arm jumps during the x-step and falls/lowers into the transition, especially the shorter big arms that aren't long armed leverage monkeys.

And then they stay at that same level. Tell you what - the next time I play disc golf, I'm going to jump out of my car, and then jump up and down five times before every throw, then do my normal run-up and throw. Because that stuff has about as much relevance as jumping somewhere in your x-step before you've actually begun the process of propelling the disc forward.

Any hopping pros do is primarily a timing thing, or a way to get their feet into position (without having to drag them across concrete or whatnot), or a combination of both. It happens too early in the motion to truly affect the throw. It generates forward velocity. They let gravity take them down, then they STOP themselves from falling and REMAIN at the same level for quite some time, until WELL after the disc is pulled from their hands.

The vertical drop adds speed horizontally like a roller coaster and is more compact/efficient.

The roller coaster analogy is embarrassing. Seriously, how fast do you think an object is moving when dropped from six inches? And that speed is vertical speed - you lose a good chunk when you convert it to linear speed, and you lose even more when you STOP yourself from falling (by putting your feet on the ground).

Respond if you'd like; I'm done now. As far as I'm concerned, it's the OP's thread again, though I think he's long since moved on or something.

 

[sidewinder22]

I said acceleration wasn't a force. It's not. It's the result of a force. F=ma? C'mon. That's like middle school level physics.

That's what happens when you copy paste wiki roller coasters, but it's basically semantics.

You didn't actually say anything there. They're running forward. That creates the inertia. They turn back. They pull through and fling things forward using forward speed and rotational speed. Gravity plays very little role in that. They've not appreciably changed their potential energy (they've changed their kinetic energy a good deal, and the kinetic energy of the disc - that's kind of the point) because by the time they actually begin moving the disc forward, they're maintaining consistent levels. There's no acceleration vertically - upwards or downwards - because the earth is simply supporting their weight.

The GRF under the front foot spikes, from the horizontal translation and the extension, but it doesn't elevate anything so much as it does to aid in kicking up rotational speed.

It's not like a roller coaster speeding up during the fall - a roller coaster has seconds and falls hundreds of feet. A disc golfer falls a few inches and does so in a fraction of a second. They're not appreciably adding speed from the effects of gravity.

If you are standing upright you are accelerating otherwise you are free falling. When you go weightless you are not accelerating, your inertia is free. When you land you have changed acceleration greatly or you will collapse. It's moving your inertia more like a wave or pendulum inside your body between your feet and pumping it out the direction you want.

That's not why. It has far more to do with the fact that kinetic energy translates into GRF through the FRONT foot and the rear knee is increasing in flex that unweights the back foot.

I don't think so. Weight leaves the back foot because it is pulled by pushing the center of gravity forward. The rear knee might increase flex because of the front foot GRF, but I think it has more to with your spine angle.

The disc is 50 feet away before the disc golfer changes his levels. In some there's a little extension of the front knee - the four throwers in that one video don't extend that knee until WELL into the follow through as they're coming to a stop and look to regain balance (i.e. not be bending over or forward a bunch).

It's a continuation of a process just the same as them going back and picking up their backpack and walking after their drive - it has no effect on the throw itself. To have an effect on the throw, the action needs to occur while the disc is still under the golfer's control - in his hand.

And then they stay at that same level. Tell you what - the next time I play disc golf, I'm going to jump out of my car, and then jump up and down five times before every throw, then do my normal run-up and throw. Because that stuff has about as much relevance as jumping somewhere in your x-step before you've actually begun the process of propelling the disc forward.

What happens after the throw just indicates what is happening during the throw. If that follow through isn't important then you should try to stop it.

Any hopping pros do is primarily a timing thing, or a way to get their feet into position (without having to drag them across concrete or whatnot), or a combination of both. It happens too early in the motion to truly affect the throw. It generates forward velocity. They let gravity take them down, then they STOP themselves from falling and REMAIN at the same level for quite some time, until WELL after the disc is pulled from their hands.

It does help with all that stuff in the first sentence. The rest I agree to disagree. You can't see the inertial wave.

The roller coaster analogy is embarrassing. Seriously, how fast do you think an object is moving when dropped from six inches? And that speed is vertical speed - you lose a good chunk when you convert it to linear speed, and you lose even more when you STOP yourself from falling (by putting your feet on the ground).

Respond if you'd like; I'm done now. As far as I'm concerned, it's the OP's thread again, though I think he's long since moved on or something.

How about pumping on a swing if the roller coaster doesn't work for you? You don't have to drop much at all to feel the change in acceleration, you can feel it walking. It's a pretty scary sensation when you are walking through leaves and all the sudden you step in a small divot you can't see, or you walk through a puddle that is inches deeper than you think. Most people will even notice a 1/4" variance when walking from one room to another room. If you can't feel a few inches variation then you have a condition called gravity challenged.

 

[iacas]

Respond if you'd like; I'm done now. As far as I'm concerned, it's the OP's thread again, though I think he's long since moved on or something.

Sticking to that.

 

[tcblank]

As for the hopping and compression, going to have to agree with iacas here. The initial hop the pro's use isn't to build energy for the throwing movement, it's to build energy for the coiling movement. It's to build momentum into getting their arm pushed back and their body/feet into the proper position to start the pulling motion of the throw. There is no downward or upward movement or momentum during the actual throwing phase. There is no push off or jumping done in the actual throw because it wouldn't add anything to the throw.

In baseball/softball, some players will do a little hop when weight transferring from their front to their back to get their body in alignment for coiling their hips and torso. It doesn't have to be done and really doesn't add anything to the swing power either. It just makes for a slightly faster and more concise way to coil a body pre-swing.

As iacas points out, in golf the reason a golfer jumps while swinging is that pushing off effect makes the arms swinging in the opposite direction actually move faster in that downward direction. It builds club head speed down to the ground. It also makes for a harder to control club without practice. But that is what practice is for.

Horizontal power for distance sports always come from coiling and unwinding the body. Gravity isn't a factor unless one is trying to move an object towards or away from the source of gravity (the ground). Vertical movement in either direction only changes the consistency of the throw.

 

[tylerc]

trying to take the thread back for a minute.. I did some field work tonight I was falling backward a lot not sure why probly just getting on the heels too much.. but when I tried off setting my feet like mentioned before, the throws felt fairly similar to normal.. but on a few they felt very powerful and like good throws and on a lot of those throws they came out way right of where I wanted to go. but I have a question. I have always had more power on an anhyzer is that because for hyzers and flat throws my feet are inline and on anhyzers my feet are offset??

 

[sidewinder22]

That's why I asked before if your throws yanked right were fairly far. The feet are positioned the same(staggered) and the swing is the same, but you change the direction you aim, and the spinal axis of rotation to match the throw for hyzer or anhyzer. Your balance will be toward your heels for anhyzer as your spine leans backward your arm swings around that angle. Change your balance toward the toes and your spine leans forward and rotates around the same angle and the arm swings around that angle. You can also change the direction of the x-step, to help aim. For the most part anhyzers go out left as your aiming point(apex) is out to the left, and you move the direction of the x-step from right to left on the tee pad. A pure hyzer is stepping from back left to front right of the tee pad and the aim and apex should be out to the right. You can step from rear right to front left on the pad, or straight down the pad with a hyzer swing and you can throw and aim straight or left, and shape some shots.

Early rotation will also yank to the right.

Just thought of an add on to the door frame drill for aimimg:
In the vid I'm always lined for a straight shot. If you move to the right or left of the door frame you should still be leveraging the same direction your arm is changing angle. So moving closer to the right side of the tee pad from the door frame your arm widens from the shoulder more, you should adjust your lower body to aim in line with the arm angle. Cross over the door frame with the pull and aim the lower body the other direction to the left in line to the angle of the arm so your arm widens back up, so it releases straight down the line left.

 

[sidewinder22]

As for the hopping and compression, going to have to agree with iacas here. The initial hop the pro's use isn't to build energy for the throwing movement, it's to build energy for the coiling movement. It's to build momentum into getting their arm pushed back and their body/feet into the proper position to start the pulling motion of the throw. There is no downward or upward movement or momentum during the actual throwing phase. There is no push off or jumping done in the actual throw because it wouldn't add anything to the throw.

In baseball/softball, some players will do a little hop when weight transferring from their front to their back to get their body in alignment for coiling their hips and torso. It doesn't have to be done and really doesn't add anything to the swing power either. It just makes for a slightly faster and more concise way to coil a body pre-swing.

As iacas points out, in golf the reason a golfer jumps while swinging is that pushing off effect makes the arms swinging in the opposite direction actually move faster in that downward direction. It builds club head speed down to the ground. It also makes for a harder to control club without practice. But that is what practice is for.

Horizontal power for distance sports always come from coiling and unwinding the body. Gravity isn't a factor unless one is trying to move an object towards or away from the source of gravity (the ground). Vertical movement in either direction only changes the consistency of the throw.

There is always up/down acceleration due to gravity even when standing still, let alone trying to throw and stay upright. The only reference you have to feel acceleration is through the earth during a throw. The change in acceleration from moving forward is felt vertically to your orientation, like a skateboarder in a half pipe going vertical where the spine is horizontal to earth on the pipe but still feels upright with the G forces. The core coils, but the lower body compresses/springs. The knee is designed to extend or flex, not rotate. When the knee flexes or extends, it rotates the femur which rotates the hip.

When a surfer or skateboarder initiates a turn, hip rotation is key for transfer of energy and acceleration. As weight is being transferred to the lead hip, the pelvis rotates over the femur producing internal rotation. This generation of torque is created in the lower body and transferred up through the body. The majority of torque in the turn is generated by the lower body muscle groups of the glutes, hamstrings, quads which move you up/down, and core region (low back, abdominal, obliques) which rotates. You will see them pump with the lower body in and out of turns which turns the hips.

You want provide the disc an upward trajectory so it can fly with the nose down. If you are throwing level and the nose is down, you are throwing a worm burner. If you throw level with the nose flat or up, it's dragging going upward and expending a ton of energy.

 

[tylerc]

Just thought of an add on to the door frame drill for aimimg:
In the vid I'm always lined for a straight shot. If you move to the right or left of the door frame you should still be leveraging the same direction your arm is changing angle. So moving closer to the right side of the tee pad from the door frame your arm widens from the shoulder more, you should adjust your lower body to aim in line with the arm angle. Cross over the door frame with the pull and aim the lower body the other direction to the left in line to the angle of the arm so your arm widens back up, so it releases straight down the line left.

still trying to visualize this.. maybe im just slow today.. so line up hyzer and anhyzer throws with the door frame drill and the pull should be? the same direction?

 

[sidewinder22]

Not nessarily hyzer vs anhyzer, just aiming left or right instead of straight from the door frame. Pull on the angle of the arm out to the right or left of the door frame.

 

[tylerc]

oh ok will try this, and do field work today or tomorrow hopefully

 

[tylerc]

http://imgur.com/jALXc1c,36hr4ab,QEX1ryx,aJnWcFP,cnIpUES,jkF53kT

do u guys see anything wrong with this grip? the disc is basically not touching the palm at all the only point it is is just between the pointer finger and the thumb as I demonstrated I can take the thumb off and the disc doesn't fall out, the thumb pinches down on the pointer and middle finger. I have been throwing with this grip for a little while and it has really been working well just thought I would share and see if any changing up is needed

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like the anti-climo grip.