The "P" in PDGA...

[coupe]

So anyhow, I just thought it odd that everyone was complaining about how they felt the PDGA was not performing... and now it makes sense. It's not quite the organization that I thought it was.

The PGA isn't the organization you think it is, either.

The PGA is the organization of golf professionals, i.e., club pros,[/i] dedicated to "promoting the game of golf to everyone, everywhere." With the exception of four events: the PGA Championship, the Senior PGA Championship, the Ryder Cup, and the PGA Grand Slam, the PGA does not organize or host tournaments for professional golfers.

Organization of the various men's professional golf tours (PGA Tour, Champions Tour, Senior Tour, Web.com Tour, etc.) is done be the professional golfers' organization, the PGA Tour.

The split between the Golf Pros (PGA) and the Pro Golfers (PGA Tour) is reflected in the split over whether the primary focus should on education or tournament funding within the PDGA.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Why not get rid of divisions entirely?

Lump everyone together. Let them duke it out. Payouts will be larger because more players are pooled together than if they were divided into separate divisions. Am players with no shot at winning would *probably* still sign up as long as they had the chance to be on the same card with some of the top pros. Entry fees could be lower because there would more people in total. Lower fees would mean even MORE players signing up.

Think professional poker. Ams stump up vast sums to go against the top players in the world, with very little shot at winning. Why not the same thing for disc golf?

I know I'd be MUCH more likely to sign up for a PDGA event if the fees were, say, half what they are now and I had the chance to play a round of golf with top pros.

Thoughts? What am I missing that would make this not feasible?

 

[Three Putt]

Why not get rid of divisions entirely?

Lump everyone together. Let them duke it out. Payouts will be larger because more players are pooled together than if they were divided into separate divisions. Am players with no shot at winning would *probably* still sign up as long as they had the chance to be on the same card with some of the top pros. Entry fees could be lower because there would more people in total. Lower fees would mean even MORE players signing up.

Think professional poker. Ams stump up vast sums to go against the top players in the world, with very little shot at winning. Why not the same thing for disc golf?

I know I'd be MUCH more likely to sign up for a PDGA event if the fees were, say, half what they are now and I had the chance to play a round of golf with top pros.

Thoughts? What am I missing that would make this not feasible?

Uh...almost 30 years of spoon-feeding Am's with inflated payouts that would disappear?

Seriously, If I'm winning stacks of plastic in INT why exactly would I want to change to a system where I'm suddenly donating with no shot at winning anything? It's that fear that you will run off ALL of the current Am fields that keep the PDGA from restructuring the payout scales and making Am disc golf make some sense.

 

[The Hammer]

Uh...almost 30 years of spoon-feeding Am's with inflated payouts that would disappear?

Seriously, If I'm winning stacks of plastic in INT why exactly would I want to change to a system where I'm suddenly donating with no shot at winning anything? It's that fear that you will run off ALL of the current Am fields that keep the PDGA from restructuring the payout scales and making Am disc golf make some sense.

TP hit the nail on the head. Can't put the am payout genie back in the bottle.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Uh...almost 30 years of spoon-feeding Am's with inflated payouts that would disappear?

That was pretty much the point I'm trying to make.

The way in which things are set up now is not conducive to making the professional aspect of the game professional. Too much catering to the ams.

Perhaps this was needed to "grow the base" 20 years ago. Perhaps it is still need, I don't know. However, I WILL predict that dg as a sport never reaches mainstream or sustainable pro level until they rethink the way tourneys are set up and run.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Three Putt]

That was pretty much the point I'm trying to make.

The way in which things are set up now is not conducive to making the professional aspect of the game professional. Too much catering to the ams.

Perhaps this was needed to "grow the base" 20 years ago. Perhaps it is still need, I don't know. However, I WILL predict that dg as a sport never reaches mainstream or sustainable pro level until they rethink the way tourneys are set up and run.

Just my 2cents.

Here is the thing: When (if?) big money DOES come into Pro disc golf, they likely will set up a tour and sidestep the PDGA. The PDGA just has this loose set of volunteer clubs and TD's to run events, and if you are dropping big $$$ on an event you probably bring in somebody from the outside with event experience. So the top end likely will split off anyway, leaving the PDGA with what is left.

Once the Open division is largely gone, you can restructure what you are doing since that pressure to come up with money to pay Pro's will be gone.

 

[ScottyLove]

TP hit the nail on the head. Can't put the am payout genie back in the bottle.

Right... and honestly, as an amateur playing this weekend, I'm hoping to cash in for some plastic. I love it. When I played ball golf tournaments, I was playing for a plaque or a trophy and I still did it, but the idea of winning a voucher to fill my trunk with even more flying saucers is super appealing to me. I'd hate to see that go away. Would I still play? Sure... would I go to some of the extremes I go to now to play? Probably not. Since I think Am Worlds this year is going to be more strictly trophy based with supreme player pack, we'll see how that goes. I do like a good player's pack as well.

So basically... my original premise was simply incorrect. There really isn't an organization totally dedicated to touring players and larger events. I think there should be, but all in good time. Having the best players in the world more visible is vital to growth in my opinion. I'm not saying we abandon grass roots efforts to grow the sport at lower levels, but without that shining star power of a professional tour, what's the point of calling it a sport? It becomes a hobby then.

We need that "I wanna be like Mike" (Jordan reference in basketball) for our youth... the "I wanna be like Will or Paul or Nikko (fill in the blank)" aspect will help grow the sport in my opinion.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Thousands more people play softball than DG without a hint of a pro tour (name a pro other than Jenny Finch) and play for trophies, ribbons and maybe T-shirts. A recognized pro tour is not necessary to have high participation and good competition in a sport. The one thing a tour might be helpful for is luring Park Departments into building championship courses.

 

[oddjob]

The tournament scene is probably as big as it's going to get. There may be more tournaments, but as far as huge sponsors, spectators and payouts? I just don't see it.

 

[archmage]

Think professional poker. Ams stump up vast sums to go against the top players in the world, with very little shot at winning. Why not the same thing for disc golf?

The funny thing is, I play professional poker. I won't play in tournaments where I don't think I can win, because when you play poker professionally, you have to think about return of investment. For positive ROI, you have to play players worse than you. Of course, there are players that are the "fish", but no smart player is the fish. That's why I won't play a disc golf tournament where I know I can't win. That's why I'm a winning player in poker. Not because I'm the best, but because I choose my opponents wisely. What if everyone who can't win a disc golf tournament stopped participating? It would be the smart thing to do if you think about it.

 

[jtrod]

"Professional", what do you think the people will think about drug testing in the sport?

 

[solomon.trenton]

Three Putt on getting hung up on the 'P':

that is definitely some interesting points there. we do need the AMs to pay for all these events. without them buying all the plastic there is no sponsorships and no money for the pros. its very similar to companies like nike who pay their athletes with merchandise and cash from the money we spend.

 

[scarpfish]

Thousands more people play softball than DG without a hint of a pro tour (name a pro other than Jenny Finch) and play for trophies, ribbons and maybe T-shirts. A recognized pro tour is not necessary to have high participation and good competition in a sport.

The athlete worshiping couch potatoes here with ESPN beer and hot wings at Hooters dreams about the future of disc golf don't want to hear that though.

Sadly the sports industrial complex has conned at least the last three generations of Westernized men into thinking their weekend afternoons and after work evenings should be idolizing those who play a particular sport the best, gambling on the results, eating artery clogging grease and overindulging on intoxicating beverages while watching said sport.

You know rather than go out and play it themselves, however lousy they may be at it.

 

[New013]

To have a professional tour you need professionals.

Now tell me, where do professionals come from?

Get it?

 

[Three Putt]

The athlete worshiping couch potatoes here with ESPN beer and hot wings at Hooters dreams about the future of disc golf don't want to hear that though.

Sadly the sports industrial complex has conned at least the last three generations of Westernized men into thinking their weekend afternoons and after work evenings should be idolizing those who play a particular sport the best, gambling on the results, eating artery clogging grease and overindulging on intoxicating beverages while watching said sport.

You know rather than go out and play it themselves, however lousy they may be at it.

You know, a lot of times I agree with you. The rest of the time I just want to slap you silly. :| This comment made me do both.

Here is a thing we forget: We were sold disc golf. Wham-O had a product. They promoted activities as a means to sell a product. This is completely different from how a sport like baseball or football or basketball developed.

Baseball, football and basketball were games people liked to play. Regular Joe Schmoe guys in regular Joe Schmoe towns played because it was fun. People came out to watch because they had friends playing or they wanted to support the community team out of civic pride or whatever. So there was a game, there was a crowd of spectators, and people moved in to exploit that for profit. So now you have that whole money-making mechanism, but the game and the spectators were there first.

What we have is a product (golf discs, the decedent of the Frisbee), a game (disc golf), a small group of players and a handful of small companies selling the product. The small group of players and the small companies want the money-making mechanism to plop down and make them all rich, but they somehow overlooked that the element that made baseball, football and basketball money-making mechanisms was spectators and we don't have any of those. For all the success we have had attracting players to the sport (and we have had a lot of success at that) we have gone nowhere with getting spectators. We still hold Am awards after the final 9 to force a gallery to hang around and look like spectators.

So at some point you have to let it go. We have a game that we like to play. We are getting new courses in the ground every year, keeping most of our old courses, and building a bigger base of participants every year. We are still nowhere close to being a money-making mechanism, and we might never get there. So ask yourself, "Is that OK." Is it OK if this is a good as it gets? Are you having fun? Is this a great sport to participate in? If so, let's just play and blow the rest of it off. If not, you need to practice your jump shot or your split finger fastball and take up a sport you CAN make money playing. Disc golf just is not a way to make money and isn't going to be for a long, long time (if ever.)

 

[Jukeshoe]

Is it OK if this is a good as it gets?

Yes.

Are you having fun?

Yes.

Is this a great sport to participate in?

Yes.

If so, let's just play and blow the rest of it off.

*does blow*

Wait...how was that supposed to go? :|

 

[Three Putt]

Don't make me Moderate you!

*already did*

 

[Jukeshoe]

Back to seriousness:

Perhaps having am players hooked on easy payouts and player packs is keeping people from working hard to get better. If someone's cashing all the time and getting a good mix of plastic and cash from winning or placing in the lower levels, there's probably not too much incentive to move up. Put everyone in one division and people will stop resting on their laurels and start taking training and practice more seriously in order to have a shot at competing with top players.

Edit: I done been Moderated!

 

[Three Putt]

p.s. Can't wait to come down in August for the RUMBLE!!

Hope to see you there.

The Rumble is a B tier. We ran around for months, came up with 20 or so sponsors to add $500 to the pro purse and a bunch of merch to the Am purse (hard to put a dollar amount on it.) After all that work and all that time, here is the reality:

1) George Smith is going to show up and drive back to Columbia with most of the money we worked to raise in his pocket. Maybe it will be somebody else, but I'm 100% that the majority of the sponsorship we came up with will get in a car and drive away from town when we are done.

2) Ber Juan is sitting on the other side of town with rusted DisCatcher Sports, no tees and no tee signs. All of that work we did and all those sponsors we hit does nothing about that.

PDGA events are just big parties we throw for ourselves. We throw a big party and ScottyLove comes down for the party. Jefferson City will throw a big party out at Binder Park and some guys from here will go up there. Everybody wants to throw the best party, so we try to outdo each other, do more than we did last year, and it gets bigger and bigger. That is cool if you are just going to the party, but it takes more and more of our resources every year to pull off. If you use all your resources to throw a big party and you still have a course with no tee signs, it makes you wonder if our priorities are out of whack.

Then we take the extra step of fooling ourselves into thinking parties we throw for ourselves are the best way to promote the sport. That's what we do.

ScottyLove is just excited about the sport. He is new and knows there is a PDGA. The existence of the PDGA sometimes gives off the illusion that there is more to this "Professional" disc golf than there is. The IFA did the same thing before the PDGA. It's by design.

 

[astomps]

kind of unrelated, but at the two NTs I've been to, the PDGA guys are super friendly and normal. They'll talk to the gallery and have actual discussions. They are also very hard working despite the fact that there was only 2-3 of them at the course. I'm guessing they don't get paid a ton either, they just do it because they love it. You can also approach players too and they are usually receptive. If everything was 'professional', you wouldn't be able to be near players, much less talk to them or walk the course with them while they are playing.

on topic, everything will change for better and worse once or if the PDGA starts getting some real money flowing.