[Innova] The secret to choosing the right Destroyer

[doth_savek]

Holy cow I hadn't checked here in a bit and had a lot to read through.
For the record I did check to see if there was any correlation between 3 and 4 grind block and the stability of the discs(bottom wing shape or plh). All you have to do is look at the nifty chart I put up where it shows the measurements of each disc as well as mentioning the grind block pattern. At a quick glance you can see that there is no correlation.

I didn't pay any attention to it at the time of making that video, but since then many others have graciously commented and messaged me that the destroyer is a 3 piece mold and the bottom piece is a filler. It is a very standard size driver bottom. This is why you can pick up a Discmania PD and find the EXACT same pattern of grind block. Its just a common 3rd mold piece used on many discs.

For those of you who are still talking about PLH and saying it is KING, I'm just confused. When the plastic is shrinking and setting up, yes the PLH changes along with the dome and the bottom wing. PLH is not the easiest way to tell stability, because you need to have different discs side by side to see a difference and further if there is just one Destroyer you have that you are looking for a match to then you need to carry that destroyer around and keep setting others next to it on a flat surface and eyeballing the plh.
For bottom wing shape you just need to feel up four favorite and then never look back. You can touch any other destroyer and make an educated and accurate estimation of its stability compared to your favorite. Bottom wing by touch, quick and easy.

Also I have a Dial Height Gauge in the mail and will begin testing dome height and adding that to my data pile. Also I'm in talks to get deals on more discs so I can go a bit larger scale. I have 6 new ESP Forces here that are getting the same treatment right now.

Thanks for all your interest and I really appreciate you all sharing your knowledge with me.

 

[Casey 1988]

Wizards are great, you are missing out. I've been using the same primary putter for 10 years. I'd love to get another old school wizard from the same era.

The destroyer is still made with the destroyer mold. The mold didn't change. Changes to the plastic itself and variances in the environment in which discs are produced lead to the inconsistencies between destroyers and other discs.

I did find the Magnet first in Pro D in 2006 then later in August 2017 in Jawbreaker. The mold is what I was looking for, a Lid like disc that was not as sharp as the Polecat from edge to top or as deep as a Rattler or Birdie, even as bad as a Putt'r in the only plastic choice. Basically the lids though I love that flight, they had flaws and the Magnet basically has the float but not the glide that other discs like the Rubber Putter, first disc I ever had or Areo are like as those disc tend to glide too easy. I love my old school as you call it stiff Pre 2006 Magnet . That Magnet was brothers for a single month before I got it, he was trying putters. I am committed to Magnets unless the Putt'r were to be made in a non soft plastic like the X or if Jawbreaker was an option.

 

[XC_Eddy]

The part of the mold that has/had the patents does not influence that shape of the wing or top of the disc. Those are 2 separate pieces, there are 3 independent mold pieces per disc.
I mention that there are clearly different core mold pieces being used to point out that over the years, there could be different wing and top mold pieces being used. Any combination of tops and wings could be paired with either core. Clearly, there are not a set of 3 pieces under lock and key that never are changed out.

There are distinctly different runs over the years that have wild differences. Not just an x out here and there that sticks out. Was it 2013 when 90% of destroyers were super OS with a PD2 style top. The next 2 years, the shape was more like a PD. The entire first year of swirly Wiggins have a straight, slanted rim like a Vulcan. Early days Destrulcans when Innova admittedly used the Vulcan top on a run of stock stamped Destroyers.

Would you be surprised to hear there is an L mold Destroyer that hasn't been openly presented (infinite discs having these produced as the Emporer?) I see this as similar to how there were Champ and Star Eagle Ls sent out without a stamp designating them as L. Recently, I've seen some Destroyers with a wing that resemble the Tern with a slight outward/convex bubble mid wing, totally unlike the common, desirable concave curve (think Firebird). I think it's too big a coincidence that I've only seen this style of shape or "cooling" since the Tern came out.

Mold pieces wear out and break. The Destroyer is a top seller. Getting new molds is a time consuming process, not having fresh Destroyers for a summer would be a costly issue. What if we got PD2 Destroyers because the Destroyer top was MIA and the PD2 top happened to be ready to press out beautiful OS monster Destroyers?

I was off on the number of mold pieces that used to make a disc. I didn't know enough about the molding process to know that the piece that had the patent number on it doesn't actually affect the shape of the disc. I will concede there.

There are definitely destroyers with different shaped wings. I'm not entirely convinced that there have been some stock destroyers made with PD2, PD, Vulcan, and Tern top mold pieces in addition to a secret "Destroyer-L" mold piece, but it's not impossible. The reasons why are still unclear to me. You suggest that mold pieces wear out, which may be true (I honestly don't know), but does it happen so often that Innova has had to swap in a different top on at least 4 occasions? I'm not so sure. There are so many other variables at play that I'm reluctant to agree that Innova is using a different mold piece when producing destroyers.

Regardless of how the discs get their shape, doth_savek's assertion about wing shape still holds water. It shouldn't be too surprising that discs with a bottom wing shaped like a Firebird are OS and discs with a bottom wing shaped like a Roadrunner or even a Tern are less OS, but I can't recall anyone asserting this as a method for finding the right individual disc of a certain mold before.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Holy cow I hadn't checked here in a bit and had a lot to read through.
For the record I did check to see if there was any correlation between 3 and 4 grind block and the stability of the discs(bottom wing shape or plh). All you have to do is look at the nifty chart I put up where it shows the measurements of each disc as well as mentioning the grind block pattern. At a quick glance you can see that there is no correlation.

I didn't pay any attention to it at the time of making that video, but since then many others have graciously commented and messaged me that the destroyer is a 3 piece mold and the bottom piece is a filler. It is a very standard size driver bottom. This is why you can pick up a Discmania PD and find the EXACT same pattern of grind block. Its just a common 3rd mold piece used on many discs.

For those of you who are still talking about PLH and saying it is KING, I'm just confused. When the plastic is shrinking and setting up, yes the PLH changes along with the dome and the bottom wing. PLH is not the easiest way to tell stability, because you need to have different discs side by side to see a difference and further if there is just one Destroyer you have that you are looking for a match to then you need to carry that destroyer around and keep setting others next to it on a flat surface and eyeballing the plh.
For bottom wing shape you just need to feel up four favorite and then never look back. You can touch any other destroyer and make an educated and accurate estimation of its stability compared to your favorite. Bottom wing by touch, quick and easy.

Also I have a Dial Height Gauge in the mail and will begin testing dome height and adding that to my data pile. Also I'm in talks to get deals on more discs so I can go a bit larger scale. I have 6 new ESP Forces here that are getting the same treatment right now.

Thanks for all your interest and I really appreciate you all sharing your knowledge with me.

With all the info in the video, I must have overlooked the part where you checked out correlation between grind pattern and flight. Thanks for looking at that. I also was unaware that the bottom piece is a standard driver bottom. Was hoping to learn more from the grind mark stuff, but there isn't much to glean from it if it doesn't affect the disc's shape.

Thanks for all your work on this. It's interesting stuff. I've already started to apply the methodology of feeling the bottom wing when buying discs. Very helpful.

 

[doth_savek]

After making that video I sent a couple e-mails out to Innova and requested a comment and any clarity they may be willing to offer about the Destroyer. Jessi Dunipace has been so kind as to send a couple e-mails back and forth. I specifically asked if Jessi would mind if I share the content of that discussion on-line and Jessi gave me permission.
I've edited the content just very slightly to organize the information clearly.


Hi Doth,

Thanks for your kind words and thoughtful video; you raise a lot of great questions here.

The slight variances between runs is a normal part of the production process that can actually be an asset.

For clarity's sake I'd like to note that, technically, all Destroyers are not made with the same singular mold, but they are made with identical mold geometry. Essentially, we have duplicate molds. The only difference in the Destroyer's case is that one has the "Made in the USA" tooling, whereas one has our Rancho Cucamonga address tooling.

There isn't one singular intended Destroyer--while Dave prefers his own Destroyers to have a mild, uniform dome and a rounded shoulder, the truth is (as you noted in your video) there are different Destroyers for different players.

It sounds like your video is helping people figure out exactly what they're looking for in a Destroyer so they can shop with confidence, and we certainly commend that.

We're constantly innovating in production and design, and listening to customer feedback is a huge part of that. Thank you for participating in the process.

Best,

Jessi Dunipace

 

[Sydex]

Sounds to me like they know they're molding the discs differently. At a recent Sockibomb event, after the video spawning this thread released, I went through all the Destroyers Ricky had out for sale. I probably annoyed some people behind me. But what I noted was all the lower weight, <173 had the "L" wing whereas all the max weight were of the "X" wing. I wonder if this is intentional and if their thinking is weaker players will go for the lighter weight discs and thus they should fly less stable too.

Overall, I agree with the asset statement. But this is probably only an asset to the people who have enough power to utilize a Destroyer. Didn't Kevin Jones, or one of the other Prodigy players, say in an interview that they'll go to the factory and request discs to be molded certain ways for them vs stock run? I wonder if a similar thing happens at Innova or if they just run them flavor of the month. Ricky did say at the Sockibomb even he specifically requested them to run the Destroyers with more glide and be easier to throw as part of his contract with Innova.

 

[swhite]

Sounds to me like they know they're molding the discs differently. At a recent Sockibomb event, after the video spawning this thread released, I went through all the Destroyers Ricky had out for sale. I probably annoyed some people behind me. But what I noted was all the lower weight, <173 had the "L" wing whereas all the max weight were of the "X" wing. I wonder if this is intentional and if their thinking is weaker players will go for the lighter weight discs and thus they should fly less stable too.

I have suspected this myself.

From what I have seen, the lighter weight discs seem to all be from the "L" straight wing mold, and the heavier discs from the "X" curved wing mold.
Given that a curved wing would likely make the disc more overstable, Innova could have chosen to mold all the heavier discs with this, thinking that those customers want a more overstable disc.


I would have placed the "L" mold discs as less than 170g.

 

[XC_Eddy]

I have suspected this myself.

From what I have seen, the lighter weight discs seem to all be from the "L" straight wing mold, and the heavier discs from the "X" curved wing mold.
Given that a curved wing would likely make the disc more overstable, Innova could have chosen to mold all the heavier discs with this, thinking that those customers want a more overstable disc.


I would have placed the "L" mold discs as less than 170g.

I don't think it's intentional, but more a product of the injection molding process. The difference between a 168g destroyer and a 175g destroyer is plastic density. Plastic with a higher density will have more "shrink" when it cools.

A guy on reddit wrote a really great and detailed piece on why Innova has so much variation between discs of the same mold.

Fwiw, it is an asset, if you know what you're looking for.

 

[XC_Eddy]

I forgot to link the Reddit thing. r/discgolf usually isn't the highest level of disc golf discussion, but this was great.

https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/avumch/injection_molding_and_disc_inconsistencies_part_2/