ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[Countchunkula]

I'm not gonna sit here, pick sides or pretend I know people, when I don't. But.

Seabass does have a.. funny way of communicating at times. I've been asking questions (plenty of them) where I get a video back as response , where some dude is riding a pool cue with a beer in his hand.. and it took me a while to get what the fuck was happening lol.

Whenever I seek more words, I usually PM Brychanus and get a 400 page essay back.

This is just guessing, but I would bet that Andrew means NO harm and you're taking his words in the wrong way Jaani. As an outside reader of your YouTube video, I could see how you or other people would take his comment as a "brag" or something like that - I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

I believe that it's more of a "hey, watch this. I've covered something on the subject before that you mind find helpful". Or an Invitation to an open debate. Should it be communicated on your video, with the exact wording? Probably not.

Regarding sidewinder replying to form critique requests with gifs or videos (with little or no text explanation), I always took that as you get what you pay for.

Do we expect the guy to spend 10 minutes giving an in depth response to each and every new post in each form critique thread? For free?

The claim that Jaani made that SW's somehow arrogant for not writing more in each response is just asinine.

*I'm absolutely not saying you have those expectations and I'm only replying to your post because it was the most recent that touched on the topic.

 

[Brychanus]

I always tell it in my videos if I teach something I directly learned from someone else.

I have cited Dan Beto, Spin and Throw, Otfried and Feldy, and the latest was by Robert from S&T group. I have no reason to hog ownership to knowledge, which again, I believe is to be spread freely and let grow with people.

And yes, Kennets, I think you are correct.

I've seen you do that (and appreciate it and try to do the same), and to be clear I'm mostly speaking in generalities here because I have no specific reason to criticize you personally.

I mostly think part of the problem is whether or not every possible source is viewed, understood, and cited here and elsewhere. Any time you or I or anyone else who is as into this space say something is new or revolutionary, there is a much higher chance someone will say something about it.

On the other extreme, i've literally had another coach say that in their pre-disc golf field, there's a "steal from everyone" attitude because the field has advanced much farther than disc golf, and once ideas become general and public domain, it stops being as interesting to cite sources to an extent, I suppose. I personally tend to air on the over-citing side because of my day trade. I won't stop; I just told the other person what I preferred to do and we carried on just fine as far as I can tell.

Story: Early on, I had a commenter (who incidentally showed up in your thread) say "wow, just like every throwing sport!" which I only took to be either (1) insight and appreciative or (2) sarcastic. Even with my relatively more humble and infrequent "platform" I remember comments like that. Part of the reason people show up to see videos is because they can't do or don't understand something. Interestingly, even though I never claimed to do anything "new" in that case, I still got the comment.

I'm really just chatting at this point. I shot off the tee pretty well today. Missed half my putts again, so when I got home I worked on my drives.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I'm honestly confused what the issue is in this case because all I see Sidewinder commenting was that he talked about what he perceived to be the same concepts before in a couple of his videos. I do not see an explicit claim about ownership in the comments, at least as they stand right now.

Thats how I would view/perceive it as well. A neutral tone just pointing things out. If we went by ownership of ideas and licensed them out we could probably go back to ancient greek pentathlon athletes or Shawn Clements explaining how to move.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

I'll add my unsolicited $.02

On the coaching atmosphere:

"Steal like an art thief" is a saying that great coaches I learned from in tennis would say. They'd just openly say, "hey. Take this and use it with your players if it helps you." "Oh, here's my cause of error chart. Want me to send it to you?"

The idea of ownership was shocking to me when I got to disc golf because it's absent in long standing sports. I can't tell you who invented the kick serve or who came up with the drill to sit on a bench side on to the net and have players learn the kicker that way. But I use it. And I guarantee the guy who created it is happy people are using it.

It feels like coaches who create drills in disc golf want credit for them and it's perpetuated by students/followers of theirs in comment sections.

Some comments I've gotten:

"Source: Spin and Throw: Throw out to 10 and closed shoulder drill: just so no one forgets who did it first."

"Dan Beto has been teaching a drill like this since the 90s or something like that."

Likewise I've had coaches say things like:
"Been teaching this for years."

My mental response is "That's GREAT! Don't we want to create similar drills? Doesn't that mean we are seeing similar things and converging on similar solutions? That should give confidence to students that we aren't pulling it out of thin air and that there is probably a little validity to the drill."

I've used drills from others in my lessons and unknowingly "created" drills that others already created. I've had student's say, "oh, so like Seabas22's reciprocating dingle arm drill?" Then I look up the drill and am like "Yup! Haha. Do that one."

So just responding here to echo the idea that disc golf is weird in this way and that other sports don't have this ownership feeling in them (as far as i can tell/feel).

Consider this an open invitation to steal any of my drills or expressed ideas without citing me as the source.

When I cite people it isn't because I feel that it is morally required of me, but because I want the greater disc golf community to see a unity among disc golf coaches (where there can be unity).

[End unsolicited observation forum entry]

 

[Brychanus]

Thats how I would view/perceive it as well. A neutral tone just pointing things out. If we went by ownership of ideas and licensed them out we could probably go back to ancient greek pentathlon athletes or Shawn Clements explaining how to move.

I was literally just thinking about ancient greeks just before I saw you write this lmao

I guess just sussing it out a bit, we have issues of attribution, perceived or felt ownership, novelty, and publicity mixed up in conversations like this, mediated through individual personalities and histories. Humans also have feelings, and that's ok too.

 

[HyzerRoc]

The idea of ownership was shocking to me when I got to disc golf because it's absent in long standing sports. I can't tell you who invented the kick serve or who came up with the drill to sit on a bench side on to the net and have players learn the kicker that way. But I use it. And I guarantee the guy who created it is happy people are using it.

I wonder if that has something to do with the clientele of discgolf skewing more towards people who have in some way had an academic education at a university and are thus familiar with the practice of citing sources. My guess why citing doesnt really work/is not done as a practice in sports is because sports is not based on prestige as a currency like academics is (and at this point I could make citation but I wont because this is not work) and it also is not field consisting of people tied to institutions. It is also worth describing moves from a couple of angels/perspectives/emphases as some people might not get along with one or the other. I have personally noticed that I have a hard time with single cues as I would take them too literally and am quick to misunderstand the intent behind them.

I was literally just thinking about ancient greeks just before I saw you write this lmao

I guess just sussing it out a bit, we have issues of attribution, perceived or felt ownership, novelty, and publicity mixed up in conversations like this, mediated through individual personalities and histories. Humans also have feelings, and that's ok too.

you better hope they arent gonna come for you and your tilted spiral

 

[Brychanus]

I wonder if that has something to do with the clientele of discgolf skewing more towards people who have in some way had an academic education at a university and are thus familiar with the practice of citing sources. My guess why citing doesnt really work/is not done as a practice in sports is because sports is not based on prestige as a currency like academics is (and at this point I could make citation but I wont because this is not work) and it also is not field consisting of people tied to institutions. It is also worth describing moves from a couple of angels/perspectives/emphases as some people might not get along with one or the other. I have personally noticed that I have a hard time with single cues as I would take them too literally and am quick to misunderstand the intent behind them.


you better hope they arent gonna come for you and your tilted spiral

Do you think the Greeks knew it as a tilted spiral? OG? How far back does it go? I'm not even kidding, now I wanna know lol

I haven't gone out of my way to search for a longer lineage, but my short history of thinking about tilted spirals is Clement/Sidewinder as my original source, then I just started trying to understand them more broadly...

I was just talking with someone else and I think people coming onto the Youtube scene later like @Jaani must be inundated with claims that someone else did a thing before them or that they said or demonstrated it wrong. The same could be said for everything on my channel - I just wanted to organize what I thought some primary concepts were in a linear way for beginners, at first. I made sure I attributed it to seabas because that was who I was learning from, and the extent of the possible knowledge base whether I "understood" it physically or not yet.

I can see that if I wanted to grow my channel as the goal, inevitably I'd get more and more "you stole this" or "you're seabas lite you charlatan, and less appetizing" comments pouring in.

Good point about academia, and ironically (or not) there's also the pride-reinforcement phenomenon there - you cite based on names, generally speaking, which is a shorthand for both what was done, and who did it. I can tell you that in nearly 20 years, I've had a number of ideas that I see a publication about 10 years later, but I'm fine with it since I just had it in my own head and didn't in fact write and publish it. Then sometimes as you get to the "head" of a field you notice people may or may not be citing you even though it would be justified to. I have learned to just carry on because otherwise my blood pressure was too high (literally). Over time I started focusing on some topics that are much less likely to be "stolen" due to their niche, which also means that I would expect them to be less initially citeable, if that makes sense.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

I wonder if that has something to do with the clientele of discgolf skewing more towards people who have in some way had an academic education at a university and are thus familiar with the practice of citing sources. My guess why citing doesnt really work/is not done as a practice in sports is because sports is not based on prestige as a currency like academics is (and at this point I could make citation but I wont because this is not work) and it also is not field consisting of people tied to institutions.

I would think it has more to do with coaches trying to find credibility/grounding for their teaching. With disc golf being relatively new I'm sure early coaching wanted to get its credibility from somewhere and the forward engineering finds its credibility in prior practices. Citing other sports was probably necessary and it bled into people feeling the need to cite inter disc golf sources.

I'm trying to tug the credibility rope from the other end by saying "it's credible because it works." Probably a very lackluster approach academically, but practically it's how other sports do it (from my observation).

Because disc golf coaching has been built via forward engineering it attracts students that are more academic.

This could be chicken and egg of course but has been my experience in the disc golf coaching world after coming from the tennis world.

 

[navel]

It's been a while since I've posted something, but I really don't want people to get defensive, argue and forget about why we/you all do what we do - sharing information and helping other people understand throwing mechanics.

SW: You've answered or replied to my posts in the same way you did to Jaani and others, with your own videos and gifs. Without text some of us might interpet it as "I said it first. It's old news", "Why are you copying me?".
I know that's not what you mean by it, but yeah... Just know that it might come across that way without an explanation or something as well. Jaani's not alone with that reaction. I've seen it in other Youtube comments to your replies.

Jaani: We appreciate your voice. Do what you do. Old or new information - people will listen and get better, even if it's just work in progress or unfinished thoughts. Don't get defensive. I know people will get you down at times. SW is straightforward and means no harm by sharing. He's like a Google search, to the point and an endless source of information.

We are all friends here, right?
We all want the same thing, sometimes in our own ways, but our goals are most certainly the same. Have respect for other peoples ways and remeber the goal - to help people and give back to the sport that we love.

 

[Brychanus]

It's been a while since I've posted something, but I really don't want people to get defensive, argue and forget about why we/you all do what we do - sharing information and helping other people understand throwing mechanics.

SW: You've answered or replied to my posts in the same way you did to Jaani and others, with your own videos and gifs. Without text some of us might interpet it as "I said it first. It's old news", "Why are you copying me?".
I know that's not what you mean by it, but yeah... Just know that it might come across that way without an explanation or something as well. Jaani's not alone with that reaction. I've seen it in other Youtube comments to your replies.

Jaani: We appreciate your voice. Do what you do. Old or new information - people will listen and get better, even if it's just work in progress or unfinished thoughts. Don't get defensive. I know people will get you down at times. SW is straightforward and means no harm by sharing. He's like a Google search, to the point and an endless source of information.

We are all friends here, right?
We all want the same thing, sometimes in our own ways, but our goals are most certainly the same. Have respect for other peoples ways and remeber the goal - to help people and give back to the sport that we love.

Hey bud, thanks for weighing in

 

[BenjiHeywood]

I wonder if that has something to do with the clientele of discgolf skewing more towards people who have in some way had an academic education at a university and are thus familiar with the practice of citing sources.

I find this interesting. Coming from ultimate, i find the disc golf community to be far less academically inclined than I'm used to.

Something like 95%+ of ultimate players attend(/ed) university i reckon.

 

[Brychanus]

I would think it has more to do with coaches trying to find credibility/grounding for their teaching. With disc golf being relatively new I'm sure early coaching wanted to get its credibility from somewhere and the forward engineering finds its credibility in prior practices. Citing other sports was probably necessary and it bled into people feeling the need to cite inter disc golf sources.

I'm trying to tug the credibility rope from the other end by saying "it's credible because it works." Probably a very lackluster approach academically, but practically it's how other sports do it (from my observation).

Because disc golf coaching has been built via forward engineering it attracts students that are more academic.

This could be chicken and egg of course but has been my experience in the disc golf coaching world after coming from the tennis world.

This seems like a fair take. It's part of why I am fully engaging with the more "reverse engineering" influx of folks recently, especially brought about by TechDisc's arrival. If I have predictions, I like them to be tested. If I don't think the tests are well-conceived or hypotheses could be better framed, I'll try to say it. I'm ok with receiving it in kind. I've enjoyed e.g. @disc-golf-neil 's posts and data and interactions in the form thread for that reason, and I'm learning from it too.

 

[Brychanus]

I find this interesting. Coming from ultimate, i find the disc golf community to be far less academically inclined than I'm used to.

Something like 95%+ of ultimate players attend(/ed) university i reckon.

yeah interesting. Maybe it just seems like a subset of DG players are INTENSELY interested in mechanics.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I would think it has more to do with coaches trying to find credibility/grounding for their teaching. With disc golf being relatively new I'm sure early coaching wanted to get its credibility from somewhere and the forward engineering finds its credibility in prior practices. Citing other sports was probably necessary and it bled into people feeling the need to cite inter disc golf sources.

I'm trying to tug the credibility rope from the other end by saying "it's credible because it works." Probably a very lackluster approach academically, but practically it's how other sports do it (from my observation).

Because disc golf coaching has been built via forward engineering it attracts students that are more academic.

This could be chicken and egg of course but has been my experience in the disc golf coaching world after coming from the tennis world.

I like that explanation as well. There really very little standards to judge coaches/advice by in discgolf as none of the players ever got a foundation of knowledge as part of the entry into the sport (like we talked about in your ama thread and coaching infrastructure on the club level). Therefor coaches are required to legitimise themselves through other means.

I personally have an issue with the "its credible because it works approach". There is a guy called Heinz von Foerster who was important for the field of cybernetics. He differentiates between trivial machines and non-trivial machines. Trivial machines have a clear relation from inport to outcome (first picture). A non-trivial machine has no discernible relation between input and outcome (second picture). Sometimes you would put one thing in and another comes out. You could take statistics to it and see the probabilities of outcomes but you would still have no idea what is going on in between. Therefor a non-trivial machine is like a black box to an onlooker. A light switch is a trivial machine as long as it works. Once it doesnt work, it becomes a non-trivial machine if you are not an electrician.



So what am I even trying to say with this? The approach of "its credible because it works" would be a non-trivial machine to me. Most of the time it works and sometimes it doesnt. However through discussion (for example on here) the relation between the input of advice and the outcome of form gets clearer and we can make out some of the cogs actually working inside of the non-trivial machine.

Now I also realise that you can explain the input you give to people and maybe it just looks like a non-trivial machine to me (and as a disclaimer I'm not trying to criticise your approach to coaching, I just had this thought and wanted to see how far I can take it).

I find this interesting. Coming from ultimate, i find the disc golf community to be far less academically inclined than I'm used to.

Something like 95%+ of ultimate players attend(/ed) university i reckon.

Oh yeah ultimate is tied to universitys by a ridiculous degree. So would you say that in UK discgolf (if I remember it right) doesnt have as many academics or is it not as apparent in these guys?

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

My 2 cents CAD (so it's worth even less haha)....

It's is always possible for two separate people to both have the same idea. Happens all the time I coined "weekend warriors" when I was a kid, and cheese tax in the urban dictionary more recently...

When I see a Sidewinder22 video post I dont see him posting anywhere except form threads, he doesnt waste time slumming. Since he doesnt waste much time on a keyboard and he has already spent a few hours (or more) developing his most cohesive video take on it. Kind of a "this is my paper on the subject" .. and an eloquent response. Takes me a while to decode what I'm supposed to learn from it though haha on average it takes about 14 views.

Video comments on YouTube are about as in depth as FB. I waste zero time on them, just every idiot yelling into the void.

 

[HyzerRoc]

Do you think the Greeks knew it as a tilted spiral? OG? How far back does it go? I'm not even kidding, now I wanna know lol

Lemme see if Platon wrote a dialogue on sports terminology in which Socrates debates a bunch of sports bros.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

I personally have an issue with the "it's credible because it works approach".

I've got my share of problems with it too lol. The ugly side about using this methodology primarily is that you waste time testing things that already have answers. For example, I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I already knew about what squish the bug was and how internal rotation was already proven to be an inefficient power generator from baseball.

On the other hand, I think forward engineering leaves people closed off to new data and methods. For example, I think we've got people like Chris Taylor and Joonas Merela getting legitimate data saying the scapula retracts first and the throw is more of a brute force "pull" versus lag initiated. Forward engineering probably wouldn't come to this conclusion. I could be wrong of course.

My perfect world as a coach would be if I was knowledgeable on the front end but open to changing with new data. For example, everyone is hitting closed stanced backhands and then Djokovic comes in hitting open stance, obliterating mankind, and I can adapt to teach my two handed students how to hit that instead of saying it doesn't work because everyone in the history of two handers didn't do it like Djoker.

 

[RowingBoats]

I read this thread first, then read the actual comment that triggered...whatever the eff this all is.

SW22 literally just said he had talked about a similar concept. No bragging, no claims of ownership, just a flat out basic ass statement lol.

I like some of your vids Jaani but your 'good for you' reply to what was actually said is the petty side of this whole thing imo.

 

[Brychanus]

I read this thread first, then read the actual comment that triggered...whatever the eff this all is.

Recently, I legitimately enjoy it whenever you pop into a thread like this to say WTF just because I imagine you feeling like:

 

[Brychanus]

I'm in the same boat, and to be honest, I'm in sort of an information overload phase, where it's quite frankly hard to tell what to do any more. That said, I love it when the disc golf coaching community moves the ball forward.

I think this is maybe the most common experience of people trying to learn this stuff in adulthood if they didn't already have a significant relevant athletic background. You will never find someone as sympathetic as me to your plight, Nick (but many people will be tied with me).

I would have been completely lost in the woods without a ton of direct input from SW. Obviously some people figure it out to some extent on their own. I was very far from one of them. I already sometimes forget that when I started I literally couldn't throw 100', and when I did I was already hurting myself.

I probably would have ruined both of my knees and shoulder by now, or stopped playing entirely if I was lucky enough to realize it wasn't worth debilitating myself. I put permanent mileage on my body, which is part of why I still care about this stuff as much as I do.