ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[jupiterboy]

If you've never tried to explain something to someone who doesn't know the territory already, or has a problematic perception of it, you should try it.

I've found you can speak very directly to something with great specificity and clarity and get zero understanding. You also have a variety of learning styles to further complicate things.

 

[sidewinder22]

This isn't related to the thighmaster video, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion here since its a critique of one of jaani's videos. What are your thoughts on his critiques? I think a lot of the disagreements might just be a misunderstanding (much like the arguments in this thread) but maybe not.

Also I found it interesting how he talks about stopping the swing and how his torso rotation goes backwards at one point. Should we be actively trying to stop the shoulders in the swing?

Kristian makes a lot of good points. Only thing I might slightly disagree with him is about the rear leg ever going behind but he also kind of talks about the Climo kick. I will say that my version of One Leg Drill is different than Owen's/Trebuchet and we've talked about some of this before. I'm talking about standing straight up on the front hip and swiveling on top of it - never collapsing into it, nor a "static front leg". Owen also says I'm spinning out with the rear leg in my version, but my version the power is coming from the frontside, not the rearside like he advocates at least in his phase 1 version which is where I mostly disagree with him. We do seem to agree on a lot of other things though.

The Kinetic Sequence

Take note of how far the rear foot has gone forward before the elbow starts bending in #5. The swing lags back through a taut upper arm, arm/disc starts forward really SLOW from heavy momentum created on the disc after all weight has shifted forward and coils into the braced front side and then...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This isn't related to the thighmaster video, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion here since its a critique of one of jaani's videos. What are your thoughts on his critiques? I think a lot of the disagreements might just be a misunderstanding (much like the arguments in this thread) but maybe not.

Also I found it interesting how he talks about stopping the swing and how his torso rotation goes backwards at one point. Should we be actively trying to stop the shoulders in the swing?

Just one point Jaani's choice of the phrase "full body movement". I think this was a bad mistake in word choice that is very confusing and a mistranslation of the idea he was trying to convey. At first I thought maybe it was an ESL mistranslation but never felt that was an issue before and Jaani's English is great so I ended up believing it was an idea-to-phrase mistranslation where it was meant to be something more like "don't crank your whole body over the disc" but admittedly it's hard to phrase it in a clear way that distinguishes good forward weight transfer vs bad.

When I saw that thumbnail or title "not a full body movement" I instantly thought, wtf? Even throwing a disc while sitting on the ground would be a full body movement even though it's been constrained and is less full body in a sense, you'd still have quite a bit of leg muscle engagement to add balance, support, etc. Another example is a pull up being a full body movement, even without kipping.

Overall I've liked most of Jaani's content.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Yeah it's not so much a matter of not knowing the words, but how to properly explain what's going on. Idea-to-phrase mistranslation is probably more accurate. I feel like I knew what he was talking about when I saw the video in the first place, but I can see how easy it is to misconstrue it, if unintentionally.

 

[timothy42b]

If I understand what the three say - and I might not, so blame me rather than them _

Kristian says the torso stops rotating and the then the arm continues. Owen says the arm must move faster than the shoulders rotate. Jaani talks about speed of the arm. They could be describing the same thing in different words but I don't think so.

Again we come to a distinction between a deliberate action and one that occurs due to other factors.

 

[itlnstln]

If I understand what the three say - and I might not, so blame me rather than them _

Kristian says the torso stops rotating and the then the arm continues. Owen says the arm must move faster than the shoulders rotate. Jaani talks about speed of the arm. They could be describing the same thing in different words but I don't think so.

Again we come to a distinction between a deliberate action and one that occurs due to other factors.

I like Josh's perspective on this by saying it's basically both (hopefully, I'm not mischaracterizing this). For me, personally, I have to pull a bit to keep my upper arm and elbow out front. If I just noodle-arm it, I round (or, at best, Feldberg my throw). When I uncoil/rotate, that action sends my lower arm to whip out from the pocket.

My opinion is that the old cue of "starting the lawn mower" is useful (to an extent) if you're like me and need a reminder to keep the elbow forward and not round. It was a(n imperfect, ham-fisted) cue to solve rounding problems. Same with smash down the door. These cues breakdown at the point where you need to whip the lower arm. (ETA: another reason these cues suck is that these motions IRL require you be forceful in pulling the elbow forward which screws with your acceleration into the hit. It's better, IMO, to "drift" the elbow forward than forcefully jam it out there)

OTOH, cues about noodle-arming, the Beto drill, or out-in-out help focus on the how to properly whip the lower arm. However these tend to breakdown when you have a thrower hugging themselves (out-in-out or Twirly Bird are better at this)

Kristian is correct, but Owen and Jenni are to depending on what you're trying to accomplish. For example, I think the Postman drill is solid if your problem is over-rotating and/or needing to feel how your rotation stops to sling your arm forward and out. Postman is not awesome at fixing rounding and defeats the goal of the OLD by holding on the post

 

[itlnstln]

For example, I think the Postman drill is solid if your problem is over-rotating and/or needing to feel how your rotation stops to sling your arm forward and out.

Now that I think about it, maybe this is Spin-and-Throw "deprogramming"

 

[Brychanus]

If I understand what the three say - and I might not, so blame me rather than them _

Kristian says the torso stops rotating and the then the arm continues. Owen says the arm must move faster than the shoulders rotate. Jaani talks about speed of the arm. They could be describing the same thing in different words but I don't think so.

Again we come to a distinction between a deliberate action and one that occurs due to other factors.

I am in none of their bodies, but FWIW (my classic half penny), when I ignore all the words and I try to copy each move I get very different kinetic effects across my body. Owens and Jaani's are more similar to one another than either of them seem to be to Kuoksa's. The sequencing seems different. Consistent with my "eye test."

 

[Jaani]

I haven't watched the video, and will not. But I believe we're looking at a straw man (resembling me) getting beaten to death, and while that would be enough in and of itself, an angry mob will finish the business. That's YouTube, if you want to make fame there.

But yeah, the arm has to be faster than the body, and to make it so, you need to practice the arm moving faster than the body. Hardly controversial, think, and that's exactly what I tried to say. Again, you can take anything out of context and flip it to your advantage. The same with not throwing your body over the brace, which usually happens because people don't trust their legs and the arm having enough power, because they don't FEEL powerful. Tensing the upper body feels like you use power because you're wasting it.

Anyway, today I got yet more reasons to focus on something completely different than DG Coaching in the future.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Anyway, today I got yet more reasons to focus on something completely different than DG Coaching in the future.

Totally understand. The drama stuff bores me to tears.

 

[Dr. Steve Brule]

Jaani. You have thousands of people in Finland that are EXTREMELY thankful for everything you've done for the scene. I am 100% sure you've helped people with their form and prevent injuries more than anyone else (in Finland). This is especially true when it comes to the youngest players as you used to make a lot of videos in Finnish. You are well aware that people appreciate your efforts...A lot.
But with all visibility everyone will always also receive negativity and criticism. In my eyes you've had problems dealing with the latter. For example, there is absolutely zero reasons for you to get stuck dealing with trolls/haters asking you to prove you can throw relatively far etc. when 90% of your viewers already know that, yet you, yourself find it necessary to defend yourself instead of ignoring it and moving on.

Kuoksa is obviously fishing for views and acts in a provoking way. He gives props to you but his body language seems dismissive. Intentionally misunderstanding the reviewed video in many places.

You must be aware he is in the Frisbeekoutsi - team and offering coaching, starting from 135€/hour. You offer information that is easy to digest, for free. Im sure people understand how you can be seen as a "threat".

 

[Jaani]

Jaani. You have thousands of people in Finland that are EXTREMELY thankful for everything you've done for the scene.

I'm well aware that I might offer valuable information to amateurs (my audience and target group). In the pro scene, I'm probably the biggest clown you can find.

But with all visibility everyone will always also receive negativity and criticism. In my eyes you've had problems dealing with the latter.

I'm okay with being criticised, but I expect the criticism to be well-worded, justified, and targeted to a specific problem. I'm happy to talk about issues, but I'm not taking anything without giving me examples to talk about. Trolls are a different story, and the criticism I get is mostly, like you said, about "you can't even throw 700'" or "How many majors have you won sucker?"

Kuoksa is obviously fishing for views and acts in a provoking way.

This is apparent, and naturally, when people get "big" on social media, they are prone to being used by others to gain visibility. This seems (again, I depend on rumours) to be yet another case where I'm targeted with malicious intent. Not because I teach shit but because I'm a good target to pick on. And I'm not pissed off one bit; I find it very sad that people feel the need to act like this.

You must be aware he is in the Frisbeekoutsi - team and offering coaching, starting from 135€/hour. You offer information that is easy to digest, for free. Im sure people understand how you can be seen as a "threat".

I didn't know this. I have heard about this platform but have never looked into it. I wish them the best of luck with their endeavours.

 

[Sheep]

This isn't related to the thighmaster video, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion here since its a critique of one of jaani's videos. What are your thoughts on his critiques? I think a lot of the disagreements might just be a misunderstanding (much like the arguments in this thread) but maybe not.

Also I found it interesting how he talks about stopping the swing and how his torso rotation goes backwards at one point. Should we be actively trying to stop the shoulders in the swing?

Dude is a grifter.

Then again, I might know some more local stuff going on with all of that up there than others too.

While I don't agree with a lot of other coaches on some things, and its so nuanced where it is. If I'm going to speak out on someone's content like that, it's going to be because its going to get people hurt. Dude is just doing the content cause Jaani has a good following and they all got some personal beef with each other up there.

Poo Poo video's need to clarify or better explain whatever is going on. Not just go "This guy is a hack."

We already know who the hacks are out there, but they are still teaching people to disc golf. However, I do know some that have gotten hurt from some of these fancy "double moves" and cannot golf anymore. And you speak out on that stuff and an army of gym dude bro's all gang up on you.

 

[Sheep]

Just one point Jaani's choice of the phrase "full body movement".

Could you rephrase this all in Finnish so he can critique it for you?

Headline: Non English speaker gets wrecked by internet for not using best phrasing.

---
To be blatantly honest Jaani's english is better than half the people in this forum actually, but there are still things that don't translate well.

As most of us are americans, we don't understand or comprehend the difficulties in speaking multiple languages at the drop of a hat for starters. And as made obvious by some peoples video's out there and ability to communicate in written format, most are still in middle school level english and communication despite being adults.

There is like 3 people who write in here on any level beyond "graduated high school" and I'm not including myself. Because... You only get academic level writing from me when there is a paycheck involved.

I think I've figured out what happened here. And It's quite obvious I'm not "the problem" in this forum.
Cause I go away for like 3 weeks and ya'll start just being shitty to other people instead.

 

[Sheep]

If I understand what the three say - and I might not, so blame me rather than them _

Kristian says the torso stops rotating and the then the arm continues. Owen says the arm must move faster than the shoulders rotate. Jaani talks about speed of the arm. They could be describing the same thing in different words but I don't think so.

Again we come to a distinction between a deliberate action and one that occurs due to other factors.

A vast majority of coaches are explaining the same thing in different ways.

Being someone who basically tries to figure out what all the different coaches are saying to gather a level of understanding, it's fun to watch them argue about things when they are saying the same stuff.

But what its even more fun with is watching coaches being cocksure about what they are saying and being wrong about it at the same time. Cause they "think" they are understanding it, but they are not. Especially when there is content on the subject already that crushes the explanation of it.

We really really need to stop re-inventing the wheel and start differentiating between "basic" swing mechanics and "advanced" mechanics.

Jaani's thighmaster stuff here is in advanced mechanics.
This is stuff you add on when your basic swing mechanics are solid.

you work with your coach to find the right material for YOUR swing to help you feel the things you need.

And this is where I struggle listening to other coaches talk about swing mechanics. They build in to much silly stuff from the get go when the person can't even keep a basic on plane swing, but we wanna work on squishing bugs, or driving off arms, like. no. stop.

 

[Sheep]

If you've never tried to explain something to someone who doesn't know the territory already, or has a problematic perception of it, you should try it.

I've found you can speak very directly to something with great specificity and clarity and get zero understanding. You also have a variety of learning styles to further complicate things.

I wish I could remember the correct terminology for this, But Jordan Peterson talks about it a lot as well.

This is pretty basic psychology stuff.

A majority of people don't respond well to information that is outside of their paradigm. So in discussions and such, when someone presents a new idea they don't understand, instead of going "okay cool, let me learn this." they instead immediately reject the idea and shut down. They will then not respond in any positive manor on the subject and generally lean in towards insults.

People don't like change. And its resistance to change. It's resistance to ideas that are different. People either want to learn or dont want to learn.

Sometimes that whole issue can be colored by people making false impressions of others and putting that forwards before the information.

It's important when discussing with others to take your emotional baggage bs and drop it at the door. It's good to keep a clear open mind and stop letting your made up emotional perception of someone cloud your judgement to a good conversation.

People dont like change. You have to want to learn, you have to want to be open to ideas.

It's easy to tell who is in here with an open mind and the willingness to learn, and who in here is overly concerned with being right but not listening to others.
Then there are the people who roll around with their emotions vs their brains.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

And this is where I struggle listening to other coaches talk about swing mechanics. They build in to much silly stuff from the get go when the person can't even keep a basic on plane swing, but we wanna work on squishing bugs, or driving off arms, like. no. stop.

You know, when Paul McBeth starts struggling with the basics like throwing before planting (source: he says so himself)
Maybe the rest of it ends up sounding like this?

 

[Sheep]

You know, when Paul McBeth starts struggling with the basics like throwing before planting (source: he says so himself)
Maybe the rest of it ends up sounding like this?

I'm assuming your saying its important for more pro's to say how important the basics are so people can see through the fog of the gimmick video's?

i duno.
Struggling on that one.

I just see to many people focusing on gimmicks when they can't perform basic swing mechanics.
but I will say paul is one of the few who understands how important some of that is.

It's hard to keep your stuff in check and keep it cherry.

It's a wheel, you gotta work your way around the wheel back to the start and focus on those basics again every time you make it around. Because your body just randomly gets lazy.
But we can't build anything proper with out basics.

Which is even funnier to me when we got people playing for 5 months coaching others.
"But I can throw 500 feet"

I've seen SOOO many people in my life throw 450+ with atrocious form.

Let me know when you can half step a putter 250 like Simon or paul with no backswing and 0 effort.

Cause they throwing 20% power, 200% technique.
While some new players are throwing 150% power, 5% technique.

And.. I'm just gonna turn this into a rant fest. so i'm going to stop there and go make more coffee and just work on my day. Cause....
yeah.

 

[sidewinder22]

Seems that the Feldberg Hip to the Sky video is no longer available, but here is some additional related material about the Climo kick:

 

[sidewinder22]

I have no problem debating ideas,.... even if they improve from your original.

Swim move is actually the only thing that I have ALWAYS doubted and not changed my mind about. All the other gimmicky magic trick moves I have bought and endorsed, tried out and made up my mind after a thorough investigation.

Is the Postman an improvement from Starting the Lawnmower or the Swim Move?