[Latitude] Trilogy flight ratings update

[DonCasper]

I just got an email from Dynamic Discs titled 'New Flight Ratings - Big 2018 Revision'. They apparently have updated their flight ratings on a lot of their discs.

I haven't had much time to look, but it looks like discs went from "marketing numbers" to "real world numbers" in a lot of cases. The Stiletto is less stable, the Judge has more fade, and the Escape and the Thief flipped positions.

Here's the link they have in the email to the Lat64 page

Full text of email below:

NEW FLIGHT RATINGS
We have worked on revised flight ratings during this fall and we have now finalized them. This has been a joint effort for all three brands - Dynamic Discs, Latitude 64, and Westside Discs. We have received feedback that many of our flight ratings have not been accurate. There is a number of reasons for this (click here to read more).

For the future, this change and update is a positive thing as accurate information about our products is important. However, we can see that this might cause confusion in the short term with people buying a disc with new flight numbers and receiving a disc with different flight numbers on the hot stamp. As Latitude 64 has historically not included flight numbers on their stamp designs, this will not be an issue. This will create some minor issues with Dynamic Discs and Westside Discs. The discs themselves have not changed and will not fly any different. They will simply have the original flight numbers printed on them.

FULL LIST OF NEW FLIGHT RATINGS
DYNAMIC DISCS
Escape | Speed: 9 Glide: 5 Turn: -1 Fade: 2
Freedom | Speed: 14 Glide: 5 Turn: -3 Fade: 3
Judge | Speed: 2 Glide: 4 Turn: 0 Fade: 1
Thief | Speed: 8 Glide: 5 Turn: -1.5 Fade: 2

LATITUDE 64
Ballista | Speed: 14 Glide: 5 Turn: -1 Fade: 3
Bryce | Speed: 9 Glide: 6 Turn: -2 Fade: 2
Core | Speed: 6 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 1
Culverin | Speed: 9 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3
Cutlass | Speed: 13 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 3.5
Dagger | Speed: 2 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 1
Falchion | Speed: 8 Glide: 5 Turn: -1 Fade: 2
Flow | Speed: 11 Glide: 6 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 2
Fuse | Speed: 5 Glide: 6 Turn: -1 Fade: 0
Gauntlet | Speed: 2 Glide: 4 Turn: 0 Fade: 1
Gladiator | Speed: 13 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 3.5
Gobi | Speed: 6 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 1
Knight | Speed: 14 Glide: 4 Turn: -1.5 Fade: 4
Missilen | Speed: 15 Glide: 3 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 4.5
Pearl | Speed: 4 Glide: 6 Turn: -4 Fade: 0
Pure | Speed: 3 Glide: 3 Turn: -1 Fade: 1
Raketen | Speed: 15 Glide: 4 Turn: -2 Fade: 3
River Pro | Speed: 6 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 2
Saint Pro | Speed: 8 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 2
Sinus | Speed: 2 Glide: 2 Turn: 0 Fade: 2
Spark | Speed: 7 Glide: 4 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 2
Spike | Speed: 4 Glide: 3 Turn: -1 Fade: 1
Stiletto | Speed: 13 Glide: 3 Turn: 0.5 Fade: 5
Striker | Speed: 8 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 2
Trident | Speed: 6 Glide: 4 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3
XXX | Speed: 7 Glide: 3 Turn: 0 Fade: 4
Zion | Speed: 9 Glide: 4 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3

WESTSIDE DISCS
Boatman | Speed: 10 Glide: 5 Turn: 0 Fade: 2
Catapult | Speed: 14 Glide: 4 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3
Giant | Speed: 13 Glide: 4 Turn: 0 Fade: 3.5
Hatchet | Speed: 9 Glide: 6 Turn: -2 Fade: 1
King | Speed: 14 Glide: 5 Turn: -1.5 Fade: 3
Queen | Speed: 14 Glide: 5 Turn: -3 Fade: 2
Sampo | Speed: 10 Glide: 4 Turn: -1 Fade: 2
Stag | Speed: 8 Glide: 6 Turn: -1 Fade: 2
Sorcerer | Speed: 13 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3
Swan Reborn | Speed: 3 Glide: 3 Turn: -2.5 Fade: 0
Sword | Speed: 12 Glide: 5 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 2
Tursas | Speed: 5 Glide: 5 Turn: -2 Fade: 1
Warship | Speed: 5 Glide: 6 Turn: 0 Fade: 1
World | Speed: 14 Glide: 4 Turn: -0.5 Fade: 3

 

[biscoe]

so a bunch of made up numbers changed to a different bunch of made up numbers...

 

[DonCasper]

Well I think they should at least be consistent with regards to one another. If you say one disc is more stable than another, but the opposite is true, you are damaging your credibility with your customers.

 

[Grippenripp]

I think it's nice to see that they're taking time and working on things that they need to. As a disc golfer, and trilogy thrower. Good to see a company taking the feedback they receive and doing something with it.

 

[swhite]

I still don't agree with some of the numbers in their new flight ratings, but some of the numbers are better. For instance:

They are finally admitting that a Thief has a fair bit of turn.
A Saint Pro is now listed as speed 8 rather than the false speed 9.
The XXX is reduced to speed 7, which is more accurate.
A Boatman is now correctly listed as speed 10.
A Swan Reborn now has turn -2.5.(What? I don't think I agree with this)


The most amusing disc listed is the Sinus. It's numbers are now listed as 2,2,0,2. Closest thing to a brick that Lat64 has apparently.


Does this create a collectors market now; Westside and DD molds with the old bogus numbers?

 

[vihay]

Judge should be: 2, 4, 0, 0. At least my Lucid and Classics are dead straight. Then there is Westside`s Shield which has way more fade than 1. More like 3, 3, 0, 2.

 

[Moose33]

A lot of these are now closer to right. The Giant, World, King and Stag are closer and so are many of the older Lat64 molds.
It's not perfect, but I'm glad they are trying.

 

[SD86]

The Falchion is not speed 8, it's a full speed 9. I think this was mentioned before, and if it's a typo they have not corrected it.

 

[Sydex]

The Falchion is not speed 8, it's a full speed 9. I think this was mentioned before, and if it's a typo they have not corrected it.

I can see how it's a speed 8. Having thrown a Falchion and an Escape, I think the Escape can take a little more power behind it and still get the -1/2. Comparing it to a Valkyrie or a Thunderbird I would say both of those are certainly faster discs. Assuming it was not a typo after all. I don't think it's a "full blown" speed 9 though.

With that being said, the Zion is now true to its numbers, which is perfect. I'm seriously loving the Zion more and more and more each time I play. I'm afraid it might nudge out my Thunderbirds.

 

[SD86]

I can see how it's a speed 8. Having thrown a Falchion and an Escape, I think the Escape can take a little more power behind it and still get the -1/2. Comparing it to a Valkyrie or a Thunderbird I would say both of those are certainly faster discs. Assuming it was not a typo after all. I don't think it's a "full blown" speed 9 though.

With that being said, the Zion is now true to its numbers, which is perfect. I'm seriously loving the Zion more and more and more each time I play. I'm afraid it might nudge out my Thunderbirds.

I have an Opto Falchion and a Champion Sidewinder that fly almost identically. I throw them on the range and (literally) more often than not find them (literally) no more than six feet apart, sideways, having gone the same distance forward. And their rim widths feel the same (they may not be, but they feel the same). Though numbers are relative, IMHO the Falchion is a full Speed 9 disc.

Not that it really matters; I like throwing the Falchion and will continue to do so... great glide on that disc...

 

[Sydex]

I have an Opto Falchion and a Champion Sidewinder that fly almost identically. I throw them on the range and (literally) more often than not find them (literally) no more than six feet apart, sideways, having gone the same distance forward. And their rim widths feel the same (they may not be, but they feel the same). Though numbers are relative, IMHO the Falchion is a full Speed 9 disc.

Not that it really matters; I like throwing the Falchion and will continue to do so... great glide on that disc...

Ah, the ones I have are Recycled plastic and they fly closer to beat Escapes but a tick slower. If you like them then by all means, keep throwing them.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or anything about the disc, for that matter. Nor am I somehow suggesting that you're wrong about the disc. I'm just saying that I can see them being somewhere between speed 8 and 9. That is all.

 

[Grippenripp]

Gotta say j agree with the escape turn rating changing, it's more than a slightly more glidey convict, these discs are compliments to one another not an interchangeable thing, my opinion anyway.

 

[SD86]

Ah, the ones I have are Recycled plastic and they fly closer to beat Escapes but a tick slower. If you like them then by all means, keep throwing them.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or anything about the disc, for that matter. Nor am I somehow suggesting that you're wrong about the disc. I'm just saying that I can see them being somewhere between speed 8 and 9. That is all.

Cool beans. And I wonder how a Recycled Falchion would do in my bag. I haven't tried an Escape, either. I'll get to it in my quest to throw every mold out there... opcorn:

 

[chadair]

Glad to see Trilogy correcting their past flight number mistakes. Most of these do improve the accuracy relative to other Trilogy discs and are a more in line with Innova. Many of the new flight ratings are spot-on, but there are some that have me scratching my head....

Core is a speed 6, while Warship is a speed 5? If you throw these discs side by side, which I have done plenty, this is false. I have a passing understanding of aerodynamics, and I fully understand that a SPEED is not DISTANCE, as distance is the combination of all the flight numbers. For Example, A glidey disc will travel further than a non-glide disc for the same speed number. But the Core is clearly slower in flight than the Warship, which to me flies pretty close to a Innova Leopard, an agreed upon speed 6.

Pure should have a glide of 4+, not 3. A Pure is a touch more glidey than a Warden or a Judge, not less than. I'd put the Pure at 2/4/-1/1 (and move the Judge and Warden up to speed 3)

Sinus is not less glidey than a Harp. Seriously, a glide of 2???

A lot of Trilogy speed 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15s should be one notch slower, but I understand there is some "brochuresmanship" in these numbers, so I'll let that slide.

Some crowd-sourcing to check these numbers before they finalized them would have been warranted before they make a final judgment

 

[Alexplz]

I still don't agree with some of the numbers in their new flight ratings, but some of the numbers are better. For instance:

They are finally admitting that a Thief has a fair bit of turn.
A Saint Pro is now listed as speed 8 rather than the false speed 9.
The XXX is reduced to speed 7, which is more accurate.
A Boatman is now correctly listed as speed 10.
A Swan Reborn now has turn -2.5.(What? I don't think I agree with this)


The most amusing disc listed is the Sinus. It's numbers are now listed as 2,2,0,2. Closest thing to a brick that Lat64 has apparently.


Does this create a collectors market now; Westside and DD molds with the old bogus numbers?

"False ... more accurate"

Saint pro has a rim width equal to the saint, the XXX has a tremendously wide rim for a speed 7... I mean I get that these fly "slower" (what does that really mean) thanks to the blunt rims, but man, nothing about speed ratings is objective. Throw these with a rig and see how fast they lose speed, then we can talk about facts.

 

[chadair]

"False ... more accurate"

Saint pro has a rim width equal to the saint, the XXX has a tremendously wide rim for a speed 7... I mean I get that these fly "slower" (what does that really mean) thanks to the blunt rims, but man, nothing about speed ratings is objective. Throw these with a rig and see how fast they lose speed, then we can talk about facts.

Good point, disc "speed" is really how quickly they lose speed (drag) and the speed at which adequate lift is generated (lift coefficient). Even without a machine to launch discs consistently and a radar gun to track deceleration, I do think you can get a sense of speed with the human eye, especially with side by side or sequential throws.

 

[F. Howl]

I still don't agree with some of the numbers in their new flight ratings, but some of the numbers are better. For instance:

They are finally admitting that a Thief has a fair bit of turn.

Yeah, the Thief was the last Trilogy disc I bought. I should have known after being burned on multiple Stags.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Good point, disc "speed" is really how quickly they lose speed (drag) and the speed at which adequate lift is generated (lift coefficient). Even without a machine to launch discs consistently and a radar gun to track deceleration, I do think you can get a sense of speed with the human eye, especially with side by side or sequential throws.

Is that how disc speed numbers are assigned? It would be better than the seemingly arbitrary rim width but fudged for no apparent reason one way or another. The other thought is a speed at which it needs to be thrown to fly as intended but that also seems pretty far from reality on many many discs.

Because the xXx for example has always been listed as a speed 7 disc and I recall the first time I picked one up my thought was speed 7 my ass this has a speed 10 rim.

 

[PMantle]

I can see how it's a speed 8. Having thrown a Falchion and an Escape, I think the Escape can take a little more power behind it and still get the -1/2. Comparing it to a Valkyrie or a Thunderbird I would say both of those are certainly faster discs. Assuming it was not a typo after all. I don't think it's a "full blown" speed 9 though.

With that being said, the Zion is now true to its numbers, which is perfect. I'm seriously loving the Zion more and more and more each time I play. I'm afraid it might nudge out my Thunderbirds.

I have not put a caliper on these, but Infinite has Sidewinder and Roadrunner at 1.8, Valk and Falchion at 1.9 and Escape at 2.0. I find Falchions to be fast. I would have guessed 10 before 8. I guess it depends on how exactly speed is done. I'd love to see all companies go so rim width alone.

 

[PMantle]

Good point, disc "speed" is really how quickly they lose speed (drag) and the speed at which adequate lift is generated (lift coefficient). Even without a machine to launch discs consistently and a radar gun to track deceleration, I do think you can get a sense of speed with the human eye, especially with side by side or sequential throws.

I'd love to see the PDGA test stuff like the USGA does. Something like what you mentioned for speed loss would be great.