What happened to "Grow the Sport" threads?

[WillGrrr]

I put in serious hours as a volunteer ahead of a big pro tournament a couple of years ago. Thought it would make our town look good as a DG destination. It burnt me to toast, but that's completely on me. I signed up for that. The pro cards that came through were like, "meh".
I should have paid attention to the notion that pros coming through were going to simply shred the courses I call home, that I play badly, those grounds that I kept, just to take cash away. I walked away after that. If you're playing for money, you can mow the green. It was a sudden and stupid realization on my part that I didn't even want to watch McBeth kill it. No interest at all. No judgement there, just a realization that it's personally a fun, semi-athletic pursuit that I can still share with friends on a pleasant day.

Growing the sport is spotting a couple of new players on the course, giving a few pointers, and leaving them with a disc or two. C'mon, you've got a dozen backups at home.

 

[ejvogie]

The first time I heard the term "Am Scam" was after I had moved to Chicago. I was at an event and somebody was complaining about the KC Wide Open amateur payouts and called it that. Rick Rothstein was kinda/sorta my mentor in disc golf back in the day. I learned more from talking to him than anybody. The KC Wide Open was run the Rick Rothstein way, and the Rick Rothstein way was really the only way I knew. It was really hard for me to wrap my brain around what the guy was complaining about, to me it was like complaining that the sky was blue. Of course they put the wholesale/retail difference into the pro payout. That's how it's done.

I still don't have a problem with it.

It's like complaining to Target for charging more than wholesale so they can pay the employees.

Becuase some people only have one setting: Bitch.

Some people aren't happy unless they're pissed off.

 

[lyleoross]

We're all motivated by different things. I never expect to make money when I play. The $40 to $50 I pay to play Grandmasters Am puts me out for a day with four to eight other semi-geriatric smart asses who are stuck listening to my semi-perverted chatter for the day. Now, that $40 isn't a break the bank for me and I realize it is for others. For me, it's a day out with other players in a great environment. I look for nothing other than that experience.

That said, I once played Open Master, ah I was so young and feckless then. At least one of the guys was this hard ass, I'm gonna win and you annoy me cause you're alive, kind of guy. It stunk. It convinced me that am was for me. Even in Am, there are some guys who are more serious than the situation merits. But they aren't so obnoxious that it runs it. For the most part, they're just sticklers for the rules and play. Rules are good, and that is why we play pro. So for me, it's all good.

 

[Harold Duvall]

Do people feel there's a distinction between growing the sport and growing the game? If so, what are some of the best ways to grow the game in addition to the essential random acts of disc golf kindness? ~ Harold

 

[dysmike]

Be excellent to each other.

 

[biscoe]

Do people feel there's a distinction between growing the sport and growing the game?

Resoundingly yes. One has shown constant incremental sustainable gains for many years at this point. The other may or may not be reaching for a brass ring that is unattainable.

If so, what are some of the best ways to grow the game in addition to the essential random acts of disc golf kindness? ~ Harold

Different answers for different folks on that one. Most of the answers are simple and obvious though- putting courses in the ground that are designed with purpose, introducing new people most particularly children, leaving courses better than you found them.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Maybe people realized the sport will grow at its own pace (which varies considerably from region to region), regardless of such threads.

After mulling the question over a bit more myself, I concur.

'Growing the sport' is not something exactly under conscious control, despite intentions. The reason for this is that 'growing the sport' is a 'results' goal and it is an abstract one. In terms of what individuals can do, after setting their intention, they must merely focus on 'process' goals (many of which have already been enumerated), and follow their bliss and/or vocation.

The sport's growth will sort itself out...or it may even wane due to some unforeseen happening.

 

[lyleoross]

I'm going to disagree with the notion that, "sport just happens." My experience in business and academic science is that well laid plans get good results, period. No plan gets garbage, period. Disc Golf is where it is due to some pretty well laid plans at a number of levels. PDGA, Innova and Discraft and a number of tournament directors including, uh whats his name, oh yeah, Harold D. DGPT and DGWT are classic examples of how you take a step. Neither just happened. Both were well planned and well structured events. However, one had a couple of flaws. It didnt do the sponsorship or fan things as well as it could have. It did do a number of things really really well. That didn't just happen. The guys who ran these things planned and executed really good things.

Is there some over reaching plan, Specter if you will? No, but the actions of smart individuals at a number of levels is growing the sport.

 

[Nova P]

/r/discgolf is painful

Mail call post! Mail call post! Hay guize I bought some discs! Mail call post!

 

[Moose33]

Do people feel there's a distinction between growing the sport and growing the game? If so, what are some of the best ways to grow the game in addition to the essential random acts of disc golf kindness? ~ Harold

I think that's a very good way of looking at it. Growing the game is kind of what I do. Though I'm a decent player and can hang with most, but what I take pleasure in is running events that get new people interested in the sport, like ace races and two discs challenges. Get players more invested in the game they play.

 

[DavidSauls]

Do people feel there's a distinction between growing the sport and growing the game? If so, what are some of the best ways to grow the game in addition to the essential random acts of disc golf kindness? ~ Harold

I've never quite understood the distinction, or at least, where the line lies.

People throwing discs in the park without strict rules or keeping score, or playing with their buddies keeping score, or playing with local club members, or playing in local doubles or other league, or playing an unsanctioned tournament, or playing as an amateur in a C-tier, or playing as a local "Pro" in the local B-tier, or traveling to A-tiers, or the pro tours, or the top dozen or so players making money......where is it a game, and where is it a sport?

Despite my confusion, I've never thought the growth, or what we should do, or what the PDGA should do, had a single answer. We can simultaneously work and grow in all sorts of directions, wherever each of our interests and talents lie.

 

[Three Putt]

Do people feel there's a distinction between growing the sport and growing the game? If so, what are some of the best ways to grow the game in addition to the essential random acts of disc golf kindness? ~ Harold

Back in the 90's I became disillusioned with the PDGA because I saw an opportunity to work with the organized parks and recreation profession to work toward more official recognition of the game as a park element and a recreational opportunity. My main example is park master plans. When you do a master plan there are things you take into consideration like there should be X youth baseball fields per a population of y. You do a community assessment and find out you are four ballfields short and 8 soccer fields short and 12 tennis courts short of what is recommended for a community your size and that drives what elements are in a new park or a park redesign. Disc golf isn't on that list of elements, so parks are designed without them. By in large disc golf courses are put in repurposed open space. Trying to get disc golf recognized would be a State by State effort. Back in the late 90's I contacted Hoeniger and volunteered to be part of an effort to do that, to recruit people inside the park and recreation profession to champion the game. I was told that the PDGA's job was to run a tour, they were not interested in what I was proposing at all.

So to me that was the distinction. I was trying to grow the game. The PDGA was managing a sport.

I was kinda hopping mad and contacted somebody on the PDGA BoD that I knew. He speculated that parks & recreation was a sleeping giant, that they had no clue about disc golf and was letting local clubs program things through the PDGA. Wake them up and suddenly the places who a) owned all the courses and b) already knew how to run programs would be active and competing against the PDGA. He speculated that I was just an idiot for expecting the PDGA to hang itself. I won't name him since it was just speculation and maybe he was totally wrong. If he was right, it was the PDGA acting in its own self interest at the expense of the game they were promoting. EDIT: To be clear, that was my take on it. The BoD member had no problem with it. The PDGA was putting professional disc golf first. Like it always had and should. He didn't say what he said like it was a secret, just that it was what it was. Truth be told, nobody I vented to about this at the time had any sort of problem with the PDGA answer. Kinda goes back to that survey...pro disc golf comes first.

I tried to go through my State P&R association alone after that to get disc golf recognized and literally was laughed at. Not long after that I left the profession, stopped promoting disc golf and did other things. So the idea went nowhere. Maybe it was just a bad idea. Maybe it was just the wrong time. Maybe I was just the wrong guy to try to make it happen. I just remember that answer, "My job is to run a tour." Not getting any support from the PDGA at that point was the most disappointing thing I ran across. I pretty much expected my State Association to not understand what I was trying to do, but the response from the PDGA was really surprising and disappointing to me.

That was a long time ago and water under the bridge. Maybe the PDGA is different now? Maybe there needs to be a totally different organization to promote the game? Not sure how they would get any money, though. At any rate, that was my idea on how to grow the game 20 years ago.

 

[brutalbrutus]

That was a long time ago and water under the bridge. Maybe the PDGA is different now? Maybe there needs to be a totally different organization to promote the game? Not sure how they would get any money, though. At any rate, that as my idea on how to grow the game 20 years ago.

This sounds like something that manufacturers should be getting together to do(what's good for the game is good them right?)... Which I guess, at some level, they are already doing.

 

[lyleoross]

The technical nuances between sport and game, for the purposes of discussion, escape me. Three put put some meat on it, but I still don't know if that is what Harold meant.

Three - game = infrastructure and motivating bodies to recognize the growing of infrastructure. Sport = competitions and the elements thereof.

The notion that the PDGA would be responsible for the game seems a reach. No major sport advocates the building of venues. The inclusion of fields in parks etc. It's public demand that does this. However, go back and look at Brian G.'s efforts. He did work with parks and rec to grow the game. He went to national meetings with P&R professionals and met with BG leaders to promote dual integration.

I guess I don't know what our expectations are?

"Look Vinny, tell em they're putting a course in every park or we're breaking their kneecaps."

Acting along such lines in good faith takes resources, there are few, and time. The movement here is actually amazing by my measure. It seems to me what's missing is patience. I want my cookie and I want it now. Baseball existed for one hundred year before it became part of park planning. And it's easy. Yeah, it costs less, takes almost zero planning and everyone knows the sport. If someone is thinking we're gonna get the same for disc golf, they need to mail me what they're smoking, it seems like good stuff.

Keep in mind, the money for public park development isn't going up, it's going down. We're cutting taxes, the rich aren't rich enough. I think it's amazing that any parks think about disc golf at all. For examples, see Houck. Yes, it does happen.

 

[mmblink86]

Back in the 90's I became disillusioned with the PDGA because I saw an opportunity to work with the organized parks and recreation profession to work toward more official recognition of the game as a park element and a recreational opportunity. My main example is park master plans. When you do a master plan there are things you take into consideration like there should be X youth baseball fields per a population of y. You do a community assessment and find out you are four ballfields short and 8 soccer fields short and 12 tennis courts short of what is recommended for a community your size and that drives what elements are in a new park or a park redesign. Disc golf isn't on that list of elements, so parks are designed without them. By in large disc golf courses are put in repurposed open space. Trying to get disc golf recognized would be a State by State effort. Back in the late 90's I contacted Hoeniger and volunteered to be part of an effort to do that, to recruit people inside the park and recreation profession to champion the game. I was told that the PDGA's job was to run a tour, they were not interested in what I was proposing at all.

So to me that was the distinction. I was trying to grow the game. The PDGA was managing a sport.

I was kinda hopping mad and contacted somebody on the PDGA BoD that I knew. He speculated that parks & recreation was a sleeping giant, that they had no clue about disc golf and was letting local clubs program things through the PDGA. Wake them up and suddenly the places who a) owned all the courses and b) already knew how to run programs would be active and competing against the PDGA. He speculated that I was just an idiot for expecting the PDGA to hang itself. I won't name him since it was just speculation and maybe he was totally wrong. If he was right, it was the PDGA acting in its own self interest at the expense of the game they were promoting. EDIT: To be clear, that was my take on it. The BoD member had no problem with it. The PDGA was putting professional disc golf first. Like it always had and should. He didn't say what he said like it was a secret, just that it was what it was. Truth be told, nobody I vented to about this at the time had any sort of problem with the PDGA answer. Kinda goes back to that survey...pro disc golf comes first.

I tried to go through my State P&R association alone after that to get disc golf recognized and literally was laughed at. Not long after that I left the profession, stopped promoting disc golf and did other things. So the idea went nowhere. Maybe it was just a bad idea. Maybe it was just the wrong time. Maybe I was just the wrong guy to try to make it happen. I just remember that answer, "My job is to run a tour." Not getting any support from the PDGA at that point was the most disappointing thing I ran across. I pretty much expected my State Association to not understand what I was trying to do, but the response from the PDGA was really surprising and disappointing to me.

That was a long time ago and water under the bridge. Maybe the PDGA is different now? Maybe there needs to be a totally different organization to promote the game? Not sure how they would get any money, though. At any rate, that as my idea on how to grow the game 20 years ago.

No, it is no different. Nate Heinold on the BoD? Come on. You know exactly where the voting population lies on the matter.

Thank you, Three Putt, for clearly defining the line that everyone cannot see still remains.

 

[Three Putt]

I guess I don't know what our expectations are?

All I was asking for was the ability to reach out to State Coordinators to see who we had out there playing disc golf that they knew of that worked in the parks and recreation profession. We could get some people together through the cool new email thing we had to see if we could figure out ways to promote disc golf from the inside of the profession that owned all of our courses. I was pretty sure I wasn't the only certified parks and recreation professional in the entire country that was frolfing, but at that point without message boards and things like that I had no way of finding out. Who knows, maybe I was? We didn't try so we shall never know.

There was always some outreach to P&R. White Birch (the first Missouri course) was the result of a conversation between Ed Headrick and the Director of Hazelwood P&R at the '78 NRPA conference. I freestyled (badly) in front of the PDGA booth with Houck in '95 or '97 at the NRPA exhibit hall. Stuff like that has always gone on. I figured we could be more effective if we had people from inside the profession holding EDU sessions, having people listed in State P&R directories as disc golf contacts that people could call when some guy proposed an 18 hole course in a five acre park to tell them "Uh, no" and stuff like that.

But in the end, it's the PDGA and that's professional disc golf. None of what I was interested in helping organize was really about professional disc golf. Sport VS. game.

 

[biscoe]

No, it is no different. Nate Heinold on the BoD? Come on. You know exactly where the voting population lies on the matter.

Thank you, Three Putt, for clearly defining the line that everyone cannot see still remains.

Have you dealt directly with the PDGA on this kind of stuff? It is WAY different now than it was in the timeframe described by Threeputt. For one thing there is actually staff beyond the director and his wife.

Yes Nate Heinold is on the Board and would seem likely to approach things from the "big pro tournament' side of things (I have no idea if this is actually true). Other new Board members this year include Dave Foss and Elaine King both of whom do not approach things that way.

 

[Three Putt]

I actually have an old pitch and putt league buddy on the PDGA board now who probably would be into ideas like I had in the 90's. I can't do anything about them now (out of the profession, ship sailed a long time ago) but if somebody tried a P&R initiative I'd think he would be a lot more supportive than the BoD member I talked to in the 90's.

 

[mmblink86]

Have you dealt directly with the PDGA on this kind of stuff? It is WAY different now than it was in the timeframe described by Threeputt. For one thing there is actually staff beyond the director and his wife.

Yes Nate Heinold is on the Board and would seem likely to approach things from the "big pro tournament' side of things (I have no idea if this is actually true). Other new Board members this year include Dave Foss and Elaine King both of whom do not approach things that way.

Yes, as recently as 4 years ago. State Coordinator specifically, then above. Regarding P&R support & educational outreach in the local community.

There were plenty of other candidates this year that would have been better for P&R initiatives and larger engagement & involvement of non-members. They were not voted for.

Dave and Elaine are great. If the tide is turning, and if they and other members can fight for bottom-up development, then cheers!

 

[`cjc]

They quit the sport for competitive vaping!