How is he lying?
Do you need a dictionary for Christmas?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of lying (amongst many other things).
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What is the best way to make courses challenging for the DGPT?
- Thread starter oldmandiscer
- Start date
How is he lying?
Do you need a dictionary for Christmas?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of lying (amongst many other things).
Surely you've noticed that most of OMD's retorts more accurately describe himself, than his targets.
I wonder if anyone on DGCR has ever played a round with OMD. It would be interesting to know if it's just internet bravado or not.
oldmandiscer
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You think he's going to miss? Jerm and Uli don't, they've called it automatic or a gimme or further out is called Ricky range. Maybe you should start watching events so you can join the discussion since you quite obviously are clueless.
oldmandiscer
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He said putts are ONLY from 33 feet on in. But in my description of the stats I used 66 feet.
I could do 33 feet but then our extreme easy putting only looks much worse. I gave putting every chance by using 66 feet on in, but it STILL wasn't even close to respectable.
mostlynorwegian
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The way to make a course more challenging? Will be a mix of skill sets. Requiring a combination of both distance, and accuracy with both fh, and bh. And also some chances to watch those players who can drop a 500' throw on a dime melt down on what is considered a give me 186' par 3 because it is a distance they will always over power.
And the reason why it's called Ricky range is because Raptor legs is a phenomenal putter. Similar to Greggy Big Putts, and that Heimborg fella.
Honestly, this thread just reads like an old man yells at clouds rant and is going in circles.
oldmandiscer
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I'm not taking a shot at pro disc golf just to do it, it's because it should be so much better and hopefully it will be sooner then later.
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You spelled "2" wrong.
Go back and read what he posted again.
Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem.
That's an important question, David, and I'd bet there are people here up for a serious discussion. To me, there are two parts to it: what's a good percentage of people missing C2, and what happens to the people who do miss it?
I don't have a percentage in mind, but it seems clear that if everyone hits C2 (and not C1) in regulation, then we're now just looking at a putting competition.
And if most of the people who miss C2 wind up 65' to 200' from the pin, then we have a problem with the dreaded NAGS*. No fun for players, and no fun for spectators.
Sticking with the two holes I used as examples (Harmony Bends #14 and #11), I hadn't seen it yet, so I looked at the finals of the Selinske from this summer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFgRcz5lePQ
These guys are using the "regular" pins from the Blue tees, but watching them gives us a good indication what happens on the Gold layout. On #14, which is a par three, there are three gaps, all pretty close to the tee, so people who miss a gap will have some serious scrambling to do, and most people who hit a gap will get to at least C2.
On #11, all four of these guys played it great and had pretty much tap-in birdies. But the Gold pin is 104' longer and is much closer to the creek. The stats I posted previously show that getting to C2 is an achievement, and with all the trouble available, I'm guessing NAGS isn't a big issue. When I have more time, I'll watch MPO coverage from the Mid-America Open and see what we can learn from that.
I'm definitely interested in hearing any ideas anyone has about where we'd want the C2 percentage to be, and how we prevent NAGS problems. Looking forward to the discussion.
*Not A Golf Shot
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I'd think missing C2 would constitute bad drives or approaches, and the putting contest only come for those who made good shots getting to that area.
(Sidebar: I'm only half-responsible for one private blue-level course, so less qualified to talk about top pros. But a thank you for your articles, which were very helpful along the way. NAGS were an early problem for us, as we had a tendency to fall from something that looked cool, but played dull. After a decade or so we got better about designing holes backwards to avoid that.)
We need a couple of things:
(1) A new acronym for the donut-shaped zone where putting is in doubt. I guessed at 25-50 feet, but that's just a guess. We'd like to see a lot of shots there. I'll float YIP ("Yes, I"m Putting") for the moment.
(2) Some actual statistics, on putting percentages from various distances, would be nice.
I'd like to see good quality drives and approaches produce lots of YIPs. Great shots get inside for high-percentage putts and gimmes; mistakes leave players needing a great recovery putt.
How? I"m not sure, but we've tweaked a lot of holes on our course, sometimes removing trees so more shots reach the YIP, sometimes lengthening them so fewer get inside.
How else? Baskets on one edge of a wooded fairway, or a green tucked off the main route? Obstacles on the green, such as trees, slopes, etc., particularly if they create a favorable and unfavorable side? Slopes, mounds, and OB may shrink the YIP, changing the rate that it's hit. A low ceiling, particularly on the approach? Shots where the distance -- for the drive or second shot from a landing zone -- lower the percentage that gets inside the YIP?
Just spitballing. There must be ways to increase the number of challenging putts per round, without changing the actual putt.
....other ideas....
We have a hole with a knee-high wall about 25' in front of the basket, & beveled. A low shot hits it and stops or caroms, instead of sliding to the basket, and you have to putt. You're rewarded for clearing it with an easy putt.
We have another where the approach shot is tricky through woods, and there's a drop-down terrace about 40' from the basket. If you don't clear the terrace in the air, you're likely to have an iffy putt; if you do clear it, it's much easier.
We have one just beyond a creek, so your approach gives you choices: lay up as close to the creek as you dare, for a 25' (or more) putt; or clear it, if you can, to try to stick on the hillside beyond the creek.
We have a wooded hole with the basket in the open, but the woods pinch about 25' short of it for a window. Hit the window, get rewarded. But just the act of trying to get that long approach shot to hit the window, causes trouble.
We have a hole with a knee-high wall about 25' in front of the basket, & beveled. A low shot hits it and stops or caroms, instead of sliding to the basket, and you have to putt. You're rewarded for clearing it with an easy putt.
We have another where the approach shot is tricky through woods, and there's a drop-down terrace about 40' from the basket. If you don't clear the terrace in the air, you're likely to have an iffy putt; if you do clear it, it's much easier.
We have one just beyond a creek, so your approach gives you choices: lay up as close to the creek as you dare, for a 25' (or more) putt; or clear it, if you can, to try to stick on the hillside beyond the creek.
We have a wooded hole with the basket in the open, but the woods pinch about 25' short of it for a window. Hit the window, get rewarded. But just the act of trying to get that long approach shot to hit the window, causes trouble.
zontar
Double Eagle Member
dang, I really wanna play your course now!:thmbup:
Hop in the car. By the time you get here, it will be 70 degrees. That's an offer you're not going to get from any course owners in Nebraska.
Our course was designed for its primary audience -- which is to say, my brother and myself. Seems a few other people like it, too. But we don't have to worry about catering to pros, video coverage, or people who don't share our tastes in OB and exciting putts.
We also built it slowly, 36 holes in 17 years, with the freedom to re-design and tweak until we get it right, and to erase our mistakes and bad ideas. I remain astounded that designers can figure out an entire course all at once, particularly in the woods.
Making the desired landing zone for the green closer to 50-70 feet from the pin. Placing pins in harder to reach locations. Making the best shots end up 50-60 feet from the pin instead of parked. I think that's where the thinking needs to go. Players are good putters and drivers. Length won't make it harder for them. Making the putt harder after a perfect drive will, and the only way I see this happening is by changing that mentality.
oldmandiscer
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If you don't address the target this is a solution. I really do not like holes like this though, I've already seen enough of them (and played a few) to know I'd prefer to see them go away. Holes that dogleg 90 degrees after 300 feet for instance just to have the basket tucked away in a nook you could never get to without some goofy thumber roller or something.
It's not fun to play nor watch holes like this for me. I want to see players park tough but fair and challenging lines. You're going to have a certain percentage inside of of C1 and thats fine. C1 putts don't have to be gimmes though for the top players.
Why do you hate disc golf?
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I don't think hate is involved.
A monkey who knows what grapes taste like does not hate celery, but gets upset when the celery treat isn't a grape.
ballgolfconvert
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The biggest problem with the ease of the current basket is that it doesn't adequately punish poor upshots. Every round I throw a couple that at best should have resulted in a difficult putt, but instead they end up in the 95% range. We need to put more pressure on upshots as well as drive-able baskets and the smaller basket is the ticket.
As a rule I dislike putting baskets in super protected coves that can't really be reached from the tee, that result in only low % throw ins for birdie and the whole field basically throwing short upshots. Not fun to play or spectate.
Got a basket for XMAS that I plan of turning into a smaller basket prototype.Be patient or I won't share it here when completed.
You are certainly allowed your opinion.
This constant bemoaning of one very specific aspect of the sport as well as an unwillingness to have an honest discussion indicates at a minimum zero interest in benefitting this sport.
He's stated multiple times that putting is too easy and too many bad putts go in. I asked for references (video links) to all those bad putts. He has provided zero—nada—examples of these bad putts that go in. IF his opinion were genuine he would seek to validate it. He does no such thing. He could not care less about the sport.
My opinion. I see no reason to believe otherwise.
