What's happening at the Tim Selinske Masters??

[jvphobic]

Pssst. People don't care about the Masters fields. Now, that isn't to say they should play on substandard tee pads or dangerous conditions. But, like it or not, the Masters fields are about as valuable as an Am field to the public.

I am going to say to them what I say to Ams when they complain about not getting to play the toughest tees at any event. "You want to play the big boy tees, play with the big boys."

IMO as long as the course wasn't a pitch and putt, you don't really have a lot to complain about. As long as the payout met minimum standards, you can't complain about that. No one wants to film them because they get no views on YouTube, so can't complain about exposure.

Funny thing is that more and more players are aging into the Master's fields, but the numbers STILL say that few people want to actually watch them play.

 

[_MTL_]

I don't want to make our sport more like ball golf, but for majors they have it right. I like the idea of having 4 majors:

USDGC - Always at the same course
Worlds - As the sport grows can be held anywhere in the world
European open - Can be held anywhere in Europe
a 4th major - something that rotates around the US/North America to start with but any country can bid on it (we are years away from needing more than one major outside the US)

This "we only need 4 majors because golf has 4 majors" thing is one of the most incorrect common comments you see.

In professional men's golf (what we would call the open division) there are 4 majors.

Total Major titles so far: 4.

In professional women's golf (what we would call the FPO division) there are 4 majors. Two of them have the same title as the men (US and British) and 2 don't share.

Total major titles so far: 6

In senior men's professional golf (What we call MP40+) there are 5 majors. 3 share a title (British, PGA and US) and 2 are stand alone.

Total major titles so far: 9.

In senior women's professional golf (what we call FP40) there is 1 major. It's the US, so still at 9.

In Amateur Golf there are 4 between men and women. Since these are all amateur events, new titles.

Total majors in golf: 13.

So when people say "golf has 4 majors why do we have so many" that's just comparing one division of majors to an entire sports and is just wrong.

In reality, each age / sex / skill really sees about the same number and amount of majors as golf currently.

 

[_MTL_]

Before this thread gets hijacked into the 1043rd rendition of the "what I think majors should be" discussion, something needs to be made clear. Every time this discussion comes up, the arguments tend to discount any major that doesn't involve MPO as not a "real" major, which is a faulty premise to start from. So let's be clear whether we're talking MPO only or majors across all ages and genders.

This year...
there are 3 MPO majors: Worlds, USDGC, European Open
there are 3 FPO majors: Worlds, USWDGC, European Open
there are 2 Pro age-protected majors: Worlds, Selinske
there are 3 Amateur (MA1/FA1) majors: Am Worlds, USADGC/USWDGC, Am World Doubles
there are 3 Amateur age-protected majors: Am Worlds, Selinske, Am World Doubles
there is 1 Junior major: Jr Worlds

Using ball golf as a comparison

Four majors for their equivalent of MPO: US Open, British Open, PGA Championship, The Masters
Five majors for their equivalent of FPO: US Women's Open, British Women's Open, LPGA Championship, ANA Inspiration, Evian Championship
Five majors for their age-protected tour (50+): US Senior Open, British Senior Open, Senior PGA Championship, Senior Players Championship, The Tradition
Also major championships for amateurs: US Amateur, US Amateur 4-ball, US Mid-Amateurs (with variations for Seniors, Juniors, and Women) Plus amateur versions of the British Open as well.

Do we really have "too many"?

I just posted this very thing I saw the comment above and posted before scrolling down! Sorry for the double post!!

 

[Hampstead]

Elaine King won by 21 strokes. Where are the outraged folks complaining that it wasn't fair for her competitors?

 

[biscoe]

In reality, each age / sex / skill really sees about the same number and amount of majors as golf currently.

Nope. The Am Majors for golf do not award titles for a dozen different divisions. At USWDGC in 2 weeks we will award Major titles for 15+ divisions. Looking at it this way the number of Major titles in disc golf likely numbers well over 100.

 

[DavidSauls]

Pssst. People don't care about the Masters fields. Now, that isn't to say they should play on substandard tee pads or dangerous conditions. But, like it or not, the Masters fields are about as valuable as an Am field to the public.

I am going to say to them what I say to Ams when they complain about not getting to play the toughest tees at any event. "You want to play the big boy tees, play with the big boys."

IMO as long as the course wasn't a pitch and putt, you don't really have a lot to complain about. As long as the payout met minimum standards, you can't complain about that. No one wants to film them because they get no views on YouTube, so can't complain about exposure.

Funny thing is that more and more players are aging into the Master's fields, but the numbers STILL say that few people want to actually watch them play.

That's true of exposure and video coverage.

It may be true of payout. If payout is being boosted by spectator fees and video coverage rights, definitely. And certainly, if the payout meets the minimum requirements for the tier, and any pre-event promotions, players are getting what they were promised.

But it's not true of the event quality. If seniors and amateurs are signing up for a high-tier event, traveling and paying high entry fees, they should have a high-quality event: well-run, good courses, etc. (I have no idea what the truth is in the conflicting claims about this particular event is).

 

[_MTL_]

Nope. The Am Majors for golf do not award titles for a dozen different divisions. At USWDGC in 2 weeks we will award Major titles for 15+ divisions. Looking at it this way the number of Major titles in disc golf likely numbers well over 100.

Fair.

But the statement of "golf has 4 and we have 20" isn't very fair to compare.

 

[JC17393]

Pssst. People don't care about the Masters fields. Now, that isn't to say they should play on substandard tee pads or dangerous conditions. But, like it or not, the Masters fields are about as valuable as an Am field to the public.

I am going to say to them what I say to Ams when they complain about not getting to play the toughest tees at any event. "You want to play the big boy tees, play with the big boys."

IMO as long as the course wasn't a pitch and putt, you don't really have a lot to complain about. As long as the payout met minimum standards, you can't complain about that. No one wants to film them because they get no views on YouTube, so can't complain about exposure.

Funny thing is that more and more players are aging into the Master's fields, but the numbers STILL say that few people want to actually watch them play.

100% accurate.

I also don't think it's coincidence that the bulk of the complaints are coming from the players who either have been or still are full time touring players. They're coming from a perspective of attending a whole lot of tournaments that cater specifically to them and only them. They were an extremely small minority of the attendees this past weekend. 200+ players total, all of about 10 of which sported ratings over 1000 and maybe a handful more are regular attendees at many of the elite tour events (NT/DGPT) during the year. The rest of the field, while including many legends of the game, weren't there to cash in or be treated like kings. They, myself included, were there for the camaraderie and competition with their peers from around the country. We get that we're not going to get the same level of attention that the top MPO/FPO players get in terms of video coverage or on-site spectators or even sponsor-added amenities (cash and/or wares).

I had a great time this weekend. If they didn't change a thing and told me next year's event was going to be just the same, the only thing that would keep me away is how far away it is. A long weekend 3-4 hours' drive from home I can do. A longer weekend a few thousand miles from home is harder to pull off....maybe 2021, location depending, I'll go again.

 

[biscoe]

Fair.

But the statement of "golf has 4 and we have 20" isn't very fair to compare.

True- "golf has 13 and we have 100" is much worse...

 

[jvphobic]

That's true of exposure and video coverage.

It may be true of payout. If payout is being boosted by spectator fees and video coverage rights, definitely. And certainly, if the payout meets the minimum requirements for the tier, and any pre-event promotions, players are getting what they were promised.

But it's not true of the event quality. If seniors and amateurs are signing up for a high-tier event, traveling and paying high entry fees, they should have a high-quality event: well-run, good courses, etc. (I have no idea what the truth is in the conflicting claims about this particular event is).

I agree. the events should be well run. And it sounds like this one was. Tee times were fairly accurate, the courses had officials and well marked (I assume because no one has complained about that). But the definition of a "good course" is extremely subjective. Everyone knew what courses they were playing before they got there. Was the course safe? Was it more than a pitch and putt? IMO, that is all you can really ask for in that division. The courses had pars of 58, 58, 56, 59. Doesn't seem too bad for a field of men over 40.

 

[JC17393]

I agree. the events should be well run. And it sounds like this one was. Tee times were fairly accurate, the courses had officials and well marked (I assume because no one has complained about that). But the definition of a "good course" is extremely subjective. Everyone knew what courses they were playing before they got there. Was the course safe? Was it more than a pitch and putt? IMO, that is all you can really ask for in that division. The courses had pars of 58, 58, 56, 59. Doesn't seem too bad for a field of men over 40.

The courses were well marked. The only confusion I'm aware of was that some markings remained from the MVP Open that were not in play for the Selinske...one example is the rock wall on hole 3 at Maple...OB at MVP, not OB this weekend, but the rope still remained.

As for whether the courses were "good"...
I thought that 501 longs was a solid blue level course (didn't play shorts but assume while level) and just a marvelous property. Newton Hill is a white level city park course. Maple Hill is what it is. Whites were obviously white level, Blues were blue and the Golds were gold. Understandably, the elite players (1000+ rated) were unsatisfied with both white level courses they had to play, but the reality is that shorter courses like that were necessary to accommodate two rounds in a day not to mention the white level divisions that existed on both the pro and am sides (no way should the 60/65/70 divisions be playing blues or golds). I thought they provided a good mix of everything for all players.

 

[DavidSauls]

Doesn't seem too bad for a field of men over 40.

How old are you, kid?

 

[jvphobic]

I am the young ripe age of 41.

 

[Rol6566]

Elaine King won by 21 strokes. Where are the outraged folks complaining that it wasn't fair for her competitors?

Because she is 100% a woman

 

[filobedo]

This was my fourth US Masters and by far the most fun for me! The courses were great and I really liked Newton Hill for a weak player like myself. 501 was phenomenal and Maple Hill was also fantastic but I do wish we could have played Pyramids in addition to the others. Wormtown is a good brewery with great staff as well as Bucks and we saw a Santana cover band at Rock Bar. Livia's was a great restaurant for breakfast and Mezcal's was fantastic for Mexican. I understand the frustration for the following reasons but it did not affect my play because I came prepared with water, had great cards and got to see a lot of old friends and meet new ones.

Room for improvement,
- no formal player's meeting for the first time ever for me (e.g., I witnessed some confusion from the Pros that played the week before on #3 Maple Hill golds which could have been addressed prior to the event).
- no caddy book.
- Four (4) hour lunch break Saturday for Ams to get to 501 from Maple Hill which made for a long day from 8am - 6:30pm for 6 hours of golf (I made the best of it and watched college football at a restaurant near 501).
- no spotters at Maple Hill for Ams specifically on #11 and #17 long pad over the Christmas trees (possibly due to the work from volunteers the week before which is understandable).
- no Porta Johns at Newton Hill by #1. You had to drive to #7 for a bathroom which several did prior to the rounds at Newton Hill but rumors are others had two deuces on #18 during their round (I assume this was on the PDGA because the TD at Newton Hill was awesome about going over rules, bathroom location, etc, prior to the round).
- the only water at Newton Hill was on #1 and I heard several others ran out of water during the round (I assume this was on the PDGA because the TD at Newton Hill was awesome about going over rules, bathroom location, etc, prior to the round).

 

[Hampstead]

Because she is 100% a woman

 

[filobedo]

Fair.

But the statement of "golf has 4 and we have 20" isn't very fair to compare.

Traditional golf has numerous tours all over North America and the world with tour championships and majors for each tour (I know what the Open is also) and age protected tours, mini tours, etc. Golf seems more like professional baseball with rookies, A, AAA, MLB, Central American Leagues, etc.

 

[JC17393]

- no spotters at Maple Hill for Ams specifically on #11 and #17 long pad over the Christmas trees (possibly due to the work from volunteers the week before which is understandable).

For what it's worth, there were no spotters on those holes for the pros either. There was someone on 11 when my group went through on Sunday, but he was the same guy who was on hole 1 so clearly he wasn't there except for the last few groups of MP40s.

I do think you're right that there was probably some volunteer fatigue following the MVP Open. I'm pretty sure more than a handful of folks who you'd find on the volunteer/spotting staff at the MVP were playing this weekend instead (and no, you can't blame them). Local folks didn't help matters by scheduling tournaments for the same weekend. There was Nantucket, of course, but also a C-tier less than an hour from 501 on Saturday.

As for Pyramids not being included, I agree, I wish we'd gotten to play it. It was in the original plans as I understand it, but when the owner backed out, 501 was added in its place. So silver linings and all that.

 

[Royalhghnss]

Funny thing is that more and more players are aging into the Master's fields, but the numbers STILL say that few people want to actually watch them play.

Few people want to film them either lol. My entire crew retired from Masters coverage after Masters Worlds.

 

[Keller]

Few people want to film them either lol. My entire crew retired from Masters coverage after Masters Worlds.

Ok, you can't just throw a statement like that out there and then not give us a reason why.