What's happening at the Tim Selinske Masters??

[Putt for D'oh]

"fell short of providing the experience you deservebefitting a Major."

I've been under the impression all along that this is the whole crux of the issue.

It was a major ffs right? And the complaints have been it felt more like a local C tier.
then those complaints were met with... ~'well it met the bare minimum requirements'

Are the bare minimum what people expect of something termed a major?

I kinda only 1/2 assed looking into this but I'm an AM40 player. If lets say i set out to play the biggest AM40 events in the country, the most prestigious events with that division it looks to me that this event would have been #2 on the list behind AM worlds? would that be right? Did it live up to that billing?

 

[Three Putt]

I kinda only 1/2 assed looking into this but I'm an AM40 player. If lets say i set out to play the biggest AM40 events in the country, the most prestigious events with that division it looks to me that this event would have been #2 on the list behind AM worlds? would that be right? Did it live up to that billing?

I don't know. It's not that simple, though. AM40 plays a lot of events. You can play AM40 at Glass Blown. You can play AM40 at Ledgestone. USMDGC has to live up to those types of events as well. The bar can get kinda high.

The flip side is that the high bar is supposed to be what makes an event a major. If the event didn't meet the standards, there are a lot of questions for the PDGA to ponder.

I don't have to ponder them, though. I'm just a guy with a rating low enough that I'd have to Lloyd Weema it at a major so even though USMDGC is going to be two hours from my house next summer, no way in Hell I'm going and embarrassing myself. :|

 

[lyleoross]

Back 70 or 80 years ago, when I was a kid, there was this phenomena, if you bought something and it was lousy, or if you went to an event and it was lousy, you didn't go back. The company went out of business. Problem solved. Today, there has to be a ten week discussion (you'll notice I'm not calling it a whine fest) of the short comings of said product/event online.

If GBO and other events do it better, um, maybe folks should just go to them? Call me a dreamer.

 

[Hampstead]

Back 70 or 80 years ago, when I was a kid, there was this phenomena, if you bought something and it was lousy, or if you went to an event and it was lousy, you didn't go back. The company went out of business. Problem solved. Today, there has to be a ten week discussion (you'll notice I'm not calling it a whine fest) of the short comings of said product/event online.

If GBO and other events do it better, um, maybe folks should just go to them? Call me a dreamer.

It's 2019, gramps. The world is a different place. Change with the times or don't.

 

[the_lung]

So one thing to keep in mind is that starting in 2021,
the PDGA Amateur World Championships becomes just Advanced and Advanced Women.

The 2021 PDGA Masters Disc Golf World Championships will feature both Pro and Am divisions.

With this change, I think we'll see a much better focus on all the PDGA majors. Including the Tim Selinske. They will be far better attended, there will be more bids placed, and the quality of the bids and the host teams will improve, imo.

 

[Dcinmd]

So do most people feel for a "Major" event that a short basket should be left in the ground when playing the long layout? The week before at a DGPT event at the same course no short baskets and the wham they are in the ground for a PDGA major.

In matching the coverage of the event that is the one item that stuck out to me that didn't feel like a major event. I realize for a B or C tier that it is a huge task to move them out of the way, I have play B-tiers where the short basket have been removed before. And I also realize in the 3rd round they played to the short baskets.

But I still feel they should have been removed.

 

[Rob Martin]

Back 70 or 80 years ago, when I was a kid, there was this phenomena, if you bought something and it was lousy, or if you went to an event and it was lousy, you didn't go back. The company went out of business. Problem solved. Today, there has to be a ten week discussion (you'll notice I'm not calling it a whine fest) of the short comings of said product/event online.

If GBO and other events do it better, um, maybe folks should just go to them? Call me a dreamer.

That's fine if it's a going concern. However, this is a one and done event. Selinske's isn't going to be at Maple Hill again.

BTW, in the 'old days' there was still a ten week discussion. It took place at the church picnics, old lady's afternoon tea, the blue collar bar down on the corner at 3:15 when first shift got out, etc. The water cooler may have moved, but there has always been a water cooler conversation.

 

[bwgort]

So do most people feel for a "Major" event that a short basket should be left in the ground when playing the long layout? The week before at a DGPT event at the same course no short baskets and the wham they are in the ground for a PDGA major.

In matching the coverage of the event that is the one item that stuck out to me that didn't feel like a major event. I realize for a B or C tier that it is a huge task to move them out of the way, I have play B-tiers where the short basket have been removed before. And I also realize in the 3rd round they played to the short baskets.

But I still feel they should have been removed.

How many baskets was it? Were both sets of baskets being used in the same day?

 

[Dcinmd]

How many baskets was it? Were both sets of baskets being used in the same day?

From my understanding The short basket where used Saturday afternoon (round 3) and the longs on Sunday (round 4). Two basket on each hole. On some holes it didn't matter. Other the short basket was smack in the middle of the fairway.

All I have to go by is the coverage on GateKeeper Media. I was not there and I am only guess. It just surprised me a bit as it wasn't that way a week early for the Maple Hill Open.

 

[Karl]

From my understanding The short basket where used Saturday afternoon (round 3) and the longs on Sunday (round 4). Two basket on each hole. On some holes it didn't matter. Other the short basket was smack in the middle of the fairway.

All I have to go by is the coverage on GateKeeper Media. I was not there and I am only guess. It just surprised me a bit as it wasn't that way a week early for the Maple Hill Open.

A few points to consider:
A. The week before the MVP open, it was known that the only layout to be played during the event was Gold...and thus out of courtesy to the practicing players the other baskets were pulled (not a small task).
B. For the Selinske there would be need for players to practice THEIR upcoming layouts during the whole week prior so all baskets were kept in place. Switching out baskets the evening prior to a certain layout being used is not practical.
C. Maple Hill is a ptp course and it's hard to close down day-play for 2 full weeks.
D. Maple Hill has 4 distinct layouts (overlaying each other) comprising 40 baskets and 52 tees.
E. When in doubt, stand on the tee below the flag the color of your layout and throw to the basket flying the same color flag (maps are on both the tee signs and scorecards)!
F. Just pretend the other baskets are very stout little bushes!!

 

[ToddL]

Friday: Whites and Blues played back to back
Saturday: Whites played all day
Sunday: Whites, Blues, and Golds played back to back

 

[JC17393]

Baskets were not removed because most of them were being played all weekend. Like Karl points out, at MVP Open, there are two divisions and they're playing mostly the same course (I think the women played 2 baskets that the men didn't). Easy enough to remove unused baskets for the week.

At Selinske, there were divisions ranging from MP40 to MA70 plus female divisions, all scheduled to play different layouts on both Maple Hill and 501 on all three days. On Friday, both the green (short) and blue (long) layouts were played at 501 by the pros while the ams played Blues and Whites at Maple. On Saturday, the 8am round at 501 was on the Green baskets, the 3pm round was on the Blues. On Sunday, the early tee times played the White layout at Maple, then other divisions were playing the Blues, then MP50 and MP40 played the Golds.

Entirely impractical and time-consuming to run around removing baskets and then putting them back, not to mention that some baskets at Maple are shared. On one hole, White and Gold are the same. On the next the Blue and Gold are the same. On some there are three separate baskets for each layout. I can only imagine that in the rush to pull baskets to appease the poor souls who can't play around a random basket the same way they would a bush or a tree, someone pulls a basket erroneously and a group or two gets stuck because they can't finish out the hole properly.

 

[SD86]

So do most people feel for a "Major" event that a short basket should be left in the ground when playing the long layout? The week before at a DGPT event at the same course no short baskets and the wham they are in the ground for a PDGA major.

In matching the coverage of the event that is the one item that stuck out to me that didn't feel like a major event. I realize for a B or C tier that it is a huge task to move them out of the way, I have play B-tiers where the short basket have been removed before. And I also realize in the 3rd round they played to the short baskets.

But I still feel they should have been removed.

If they're going to be used during part of the tournament, and/or if they would be difficult to remove, then leave them in place. My suggestion would be to put large trash bags over the unused baskets on a hole to prevent confusion, and some special rule could be made to provide free relief for players whose discs land right behind those baskets or obstructs their ability to throw.

 

[puttlikeablowfly]

I can see how covering the extra baskets to avoid confusion may be a good idea if they're not being used by other divisions or in later rounds that day, but unless it's otherwise difficult to visibly distinguish between the different baskets, I don't think it's a big deal. However, I don't really understand why people think they should be removed or that players should get relief from them. They're obstacles. We usually have a lot of obstacles on courses; in fact, some people prefer more obstacles rather than fewer obstacles. These particular obstacles are generally even designed to be as visible as possible, and the positions of them are more likely than most natural obstacles to be shown in reasonably accurate locations on tee signs, maybe even with the very distance to them listed as well. Even if your disc ends up leaning against the front of the pole of the wrong basket, it's not like you have no reasonable stance for the next shot. Yes, John Houck may scoff at the solitary skinny obstacle if it happens to be in the middle of an otherwise open fairway, but is this really that big of a concern that we would want TDs, volunteers, whoever, to go through the hassle of hauling them off and then putting them back in?

 

[JC17393]

I've been running through the holes at Maple Hill in my head trying to figure out which baskets might be considered obtrusive when not being played, and I'm not coming up with many. At least from the perspective of them obstructing a common or preferred throwing line to a longer placement. I think if you find yourself being blocked (even partially) by a basket that doesn't belong to the layout you're playing, odds are you're out of position in the first place. In which case, it really is no different than being just off the fairway and having a bush or tree blocking your desired line.

Maybe hole 16? The white basket is in the heart of the line to the blue/gold. However, a good throw going for the long basket should be high enough when it reaches the white that it should not get in the way. And if the white basket is blocking your second shot (either the stance or the flight), you threw a poor tee shot to be in that position.

The rest that aren't tucked off to the side and almost invisible if you're looking down the intended throwing line(s) are out in the wide open where they're easy enough to avoid. On holes 1 and 11, they're really no different than the countless Xmas trees that dot the fairways and pose just as much if not more of an obstruction if you land near/behind/under them.

Hole 15 features three baskets within about 100 feet of one another, but if you land near one that isn't your target, your throw was off-line in the first place. And landing under/behind one really only forces you to play a putt/approach around it the same as you would with any of the couple dozen trees and bushes that are scattered around.

I guess the bottom line from my point of view is that if you found yourself in a position where a non-target basket was in your way, would you bitch about the TD/staff having not removed a tree or bush sitting in its place?

 

[Dcinmd]

I've been running through the holes at Maple Hill in my head trying to figure out which baskets might be considered obtrusive when not being played, and I'm not coming up with many.

I didn't come up with many either. The ones that stood out to me where Hole #1, it is in the ideal landing zone for +40 players looking to skip up the road. Hole #12 the basket is in the tunnel approach, and probably the worst one. And Hole #16.

I guess the bottom line from my point of view is that if you found yourself in a position where a non-target basket was in your way, would you bitch about the TD/staff having not removed a tree or bush sitting in its place?

Pro's never ever complain about tree or bushing cover up lines in a fairway. NEVER.

Thanks everyone for respectfully answer my questions. With multiple divisions playing different layout on the same course it made sense to leave the basket where they where.

 

[JC17393]

I didn't come up with many either. The ones that stood out to me where Hole #1, it is in the ideal landing zone for +40 players looking to skip up the road. Hole #12 the basket is in the tunnel approach, and probably the worst one. And Hole #16.

Hole 12 blue basket isn't really in the approach to the gold unless you're well up the hill to the right, which isn't necessarily the best way to play it. If you've taken more of a straight line approach from the tee to the gap, the basket should remain on the right side of one's throwing lines. To wit, during Sunday's round, J Ray chose to throw a big hyzer over the top (successfully for the 3) after deciding that a throw through the gap might hit the blue basket. He was significantly high up on the hill though, and based on his words and body language after his drive, not where he intended to be. So arguably it was a case of being out of position that brought the basket into play. It was not an issue for anyone else on the card.

As for hole 1, I disagree that it's in the ideal landing zone for the road. I think if you're trying to land on the road, your drive ideally is going to fly over the basket rather than through the air space it occupies. I watched nearly all the MP50 drives and most of the MP40 drives and not a one came anywhere near that basket. I think at worst it might be a visual thing more than an actual obstacle to a good throw. The field seemed to be evenly split between guys with the arm to get over throwing well past that basket and guys who did not trust themselves to clear the water who played to the left side of the pond and got no where near the basket (but often ended up behind or in Xmas trees that were much worse to deal with than a basket).

If anything, the white basket there was more of an obstacle for throws from the drop zone than from the tee. But again, that's the player putting themselves in a bad position more so than the basket being in a bad spot.

 

[DavidSauls]

To my mind, not having inactive baskets in place is sort of a "best practices" item; the kind of little detail you'd hope to cover, but in the end a very little detail if you can't.

I don't know about Maple Hill in particular, but depending on the circumstance the particular issues might be:

* An obstacle, in a place where you wouldn't have one if you could avoid it. Yes, it's like a bush, but some short-location baskets are located where, if a bush were there, you'd cut it down.

* Confusion, particularly at an event with a lot of out-of-town players.

* Aesthetics.

At our local C-tier, we remove baskets that may be obstacles (and one, for aesthetic reasons), and bag the rest to prevent confusion (with a slight nod to aesthetics; the bagged basket doesn't look as odd as multiple baskets on a fairway). But we're only making the changes overnight, not between rounds during the day when time is really tight.

But it's a very small detail. I wouldn't go as far as to say it should be done at a Major, only that it would be nice if it were.

 

[lyleoross]

It's 2019, gramps. The world is a different place. Change with the times or don't.

Wait, I literally gifted you, and with all the old man humor out there, you went with a 60 year old song, "It's my party and I'll whine if I want to?"

I completely understand the next generation redoing music from the last generation, thinking of your own is so hard, but that song wasn't an anthem, I'm not even sure it was music?


Now, try again. You're on my grass kid.

 

[R-Ogre]

So if you're playing a tourney to the long basket, and sink it in the short basket off the tee, is that a gray ace?