“The Secret Technique” to throw Roc 375’ with 15% power

[DrBone]

Notice how I'm maintaining maximum leverage on the hammer with ulnar deviation and a straight handle in the perpetual swing drill.

Can you explain a bit more of the ulnar deviation part? When and which direction are you moving the wrist/hand?

^ Helpful guide for others for what ulnar deviation is, I know I needed it

 

[RowingBoats]

Can you explain a bit more of the ulnar deviation part? When and which direction are you moving the wrist/hand?

^ Helpful guide for others for what ulnar deviation is, I know I needed it

This is probably one of the reasons the hammer stuff might be misunderstood, or feel like it doesn't apply to swinging with a disc instead.

The weight of the hammer is what is helpful about the object. To throw a hammer, we have some built in, natural movement patterns that are very intuitive. If we don't 'flow' with a hammer, and try to strong-arm it with a detached movement from the hammer's own weight, the action is not going to feel good.

The actual wrist position is going to be different gripping a hammer shaft when compared to a disc. When I throw a disc, the ulnar deviation is for nose down release, and I perceive, at the very tip of the whip, slight wrist extension and possibly a twinge of suppination.

This could be a real vs feel thing though. And, I think there are a couple of slight variations on how people do this particular thing.

 

[timothy42b]

Ulnar deviation is toward the thumb side, radial deviation toward the little finger side.

What I took from Brychanus's description is that when throwing the hammer he had no flexion or extension, and maintained the hammer in a slight ulnar deviation without allowing it to deviate radially (or uncock) until the swing force pulls it straight.

But it seems to me the motion of a backhand throw is 90 degrees from a hammer. The hammer is swung with palm facing the ground, a disc is thrown with palm vertical, at least at the hit point.

 

[Brychanus]

Can you explain a bit more of the ulnar deviation part? When and which direction are you moving the wrist/hand?

^ Helpful guide for others for what ulnar deviation is, I know I needed it

I'm aiming to maintain this grip position and wrist leverage throughout the entire backswing and swing. This works while mitigating the need to worry about the when and which direction so much. There is some ulnar deviation and flexion as you can see in the setup. Maintaining this position relative to the hammer rather than curling helps make it easier for me to get the right stiffness and tendon bounce when the disc enters the hit in my case (people like Conrad use more curl but move through the hit in the same leverage position). Right now I still have to warm up with the hammer or my wrist likes to get too loosey-goosey as soon as I put a disc in my hand. Also, imagining that the disc is literally a hammer I'm throwing right after I swing the hammer is really helping.

My disc grip now feels almost exactly the same, just fit to the disc ergonomics. Notice the splayed front index finger. Swing a hammer around with that grip with your whole body with everything else loose and you can tell why it gets very high leverage and control.

Like RowingBoat mentioned above, it's not the same grip pressure throughout the swing. It's exactly like it flows in a good hammer swing - my arm is taught and lead by my body into the swing. As the hammer enters the hit, the last thing I feel is my thumb leverage on the back of the hammer when I do practice swings (it's harder to tell in the disc so far). SW22 has talked about this a lot. It didn't work very well for me until I had a lot of other chain mechanics in place first that added force and helped get my body out of the way and swinging freely etc. Still figuring it out but even today it's putting more snap in my x-step.



Before when I was throwing with the hand ahead of the disc, I felt more pressure in my index finger as the disc was about to leave. When I swing more like a hammer and get better snap, I can feel the pressure is transferred better to the disc because it's smoother and the disc goes faster.

I found all of this way too hard to learn by micromanaging it. The hammer is finally helping. This is one of the key lessons behind what SW22 teaches. Yes, he focuses a lot on mechanics, but he also understands the value of natural movement learning aids.



When I throw a disc, if I lose the hammer grip or arm pulled taut by my swing, I lose the snap immediately no matter what else my body is doing. I share the belief that this is one of the most crucial bases for the big distance vs. otherwise good form but weak late force transfer and crummy snap.

This is probably one of the reasons the hammer stuff might be misunderstood, or feel like it doesn't apply to swinging with a disc instead.

The weight of the hammer is what is helpful about the object. To throw a hammer, we have some built in, natural movement patterns that are very intuitive. If we don't 'flow' with a hammer, and try to strong-arm it with a detached movement from the hammer's own weight, the action is not going to feel good.

The actual wrist position is going to be different gripping a hammer shaft when compared to a disc. When I throw a disc, the ulnar deviation is for nose down release, and I perceive, at the very tip of the whip, slight wrist extension and possibly a twinge of suppination.

This could be a real vs feel thing though. And, I think there are a couple of slight variations on how people do this particular thing.

I agree that this is one of the weirder things. Something about the late swing mechanics with the hammer must be different b/c my 3lb hammer is not a 170g disc. So for now I just tend to think of the hammer as a uniquely valuable feedback tool, and the hammer swing thought very, very helpful in extending the swing to smash through the target rather than just lead with the hand. The overall pattern of the arm's movement is a lot like swinging the hammer in terms of how the natural rotations should work, but there are some variances there as people have pointed out. I'm still interested in all that.

In practical terms, doing the perpetual swinging pendulum drills in the initial reverse stride stance is helping my arm learn how to swing freely into natural rotations. I should reinforce that it seems essential to imagine hitting and swinging through the target with the hammer and feeling the final leverage through the thumb. Seabas22 Slash thru.

 

[RowingBoats]

That Jakub gif is so sick lol. I just watched it like 50x.

 

[Sard0nyx]

That Jakub gif is so sick lol. I just watched it like 50x.

I'd argue that he's not throwing or swinging a hammer. I have some new thoughts after playing a little. I'll write some stuff up tomorrow.

 

[Sheep]

I don't have a ton to add on this one.

The one that always cracks me up though when you talk to people is them thinking that 'snap' means the sound your hand makes when you throw. Though, sometimes depending on the person, its an indication of a good chain, or maybe not.
Either way, Just wanted to giggle about that for a moment.



The whole chain motion requires a whole bunch of things we don't really talk about, we kind of either instinctually do, or don't.

The hammer drill helps us feel the motions of the swing to drive the hit as the weight helps us utilize our body in a swinging motion, vs a forced motion.

This is where I think some people get really confused with the hammer thing. They will swing the hammer a few times and say "I got it." Then go back to muscling through the swing. This is why its important to learn when to smash the hammer/disc, not just smashing the whole way.

Such as someone made a thread on swinging an axe the other day, you add the power in after the leverage is created, not before the leverage.

Once you've created the leverage, you can stack on top of it. (aka, secret sauce)

The problem I see is that people are artificially trying to create the leverage with muscling, not letting the body flow. SO back to the hammer drill. You need to feel it out, the swing, and the harmony of your body letting the weight move.

Which turns me into the funny discussion with people when you're trying to teach them. And they ask for my help, and my constant answer is "stop throwing so hard."
And they don't get it, and finally they try to not throw hard, and their kinetic chain links up. They are backing off on forcing the chain vs driving the chain.

And, cause its 6am, insert fleetwood mac. Or something.

Hopefully that adds something to the discussion.

 

[Brychanus]

I'd argue that he's not throwing or swinging a hammer. I have some new thoughts after playing a little. I'll write some stuff up tomorrow.

I don't think he is either. His arm follow through is low under the shoulder line and he does not have a complete tilted spiral.

 

[seedlings]

I don't think he is either. His arm follow through is low under the shoulder line and he does not have a complete tilted spiral.

I thought the follow through indicated a low anhyzer. But I'm listening to the other thoughts.

 

[Brychanus]

I thought the follow through indicated a low anhyzer. But I'm listening to the other thoughts.

What I meant there was that if you compare Jakub (at least that throw, I haven't seen much of him) to Gibson or Lizotte, the angle of Jakub's arm in follow through when the shoulder is at a similar point is larger than it is in those two guys. His arm path is coming through lower and the swing is flatter overall (important not to confuse a flat swing with a more shallow shoulder-to-arm angle). There appears to be some camera parallax too - he's actually hunched more forward over his front leg heading into the throw than the other two so I think the arm angle difference would appear even bigger if the camera were similar relative to his back.

You can tell that he is not swinging in a complete tilted spiral because of the direction of his follow through, among other cues. That gif is slightly cut off, but you can see Jakub slightly dragging the rear arm and gets trapped and bunched up behind his brace:

If you watch the throws in real time, you will see that Jakub doesn't have the same postural tilt maintained through the swing that Simon or Gibson get. This brings his remaining momentum more forward because his swing (not just the line of play) is flatter.

The tilt in Simon or Gibson is what SW22 goes over in Tilted Twirl and similar to how Shawn Clement discusses it. The recoil in Simon or Gibson's follow through carry their momentum up and around at ~90 degrees to the line of play because leverage and centrifugal force are sideways in a complete tilted spiral.

BTW, I'm aware my writing might come across more confident or definitive than I actually feel at times, so I'm just bringing things up based on what I think I've learned to date and appreciate the discussion.

 

[Lastchancer88]

What I meant there was that if you compare Jakub (at least that throw, I haven't seen much of him) to Gibson or Lizotte, the angle of Jakub's arm in follow through when the shoulder is at a similar point is larger than it is in those two guys. His arm path is coming through lower and the swing is flatter overall (important not to confuse a flat swing with a more shallow shoulder-to-arm angle). There appears to be some camera parallax too - he's actually hunched more forward over his front leg heading into the throw than the other two so I think the arm angle difference would appear even bigger if the camera were similar relative to his back.

You can tell that he is not swinging in a complete tilted spiral because of the direction of his follow through, among other cues. That gif is slightly cut off, but you can see Jakub slightly dragging the rear arm and gets trapped and bunched up behind his brace:

If you watch the throws in real time, you will see that Jakub doesn't have the same postural tilt maintained through the swing that Simon or Gibson get. This brings his remaining momentum more forward because his swing (not just the line of play) is flatter.

The tilt in Simon or Gibson is what SW22 goes over in Tilted Twirl and similar to how Shawn Clement discusses it. The recoil in Simon or Gibson's follow through carry their momentum up and around at ~90 degrees to the line of play because leverage and centrifugal force are sideways in a complete tilted spiral.

BTW, I'm aware my writing might come across more confident or definitive than I actually feel at times, so I'm just bringing things up based on what I think I've learned to date and appreciate the discussion.

Good eye.

This also goes to a larger point about us reviewing form here. I chose Jakub to make a point about what I see as a clear sideways right arm extension out to the hit aka hammer path. However he is a new player relatively speaking and may not exemplify every aspect of form correctly.

We all have to stay cognizant of the fact that no one has perfect form. Some pros may even have flaws that are potentials for injury. That's where PSA #4 comes from. Variety in form is the spice of finding snap. Or something.

 

[ru4por]

We certainly have many inquiring minds regarding technique. I laud those seeking better form. I am only here to suggest the there is no secret........................THROW IT HARD!!

 

[Faded]

Inspiring thread. I've revisited the Beto drill the last couple of days, not having tried it in a year.

Much easier now to get some decent distance and some glide as you pick up on things a long the way. Experimented with grip pressure to force some snap without much added benefit.

Went back to SW22s more free flowing one leg and results were a bit more distance but less consistent release. Did the water bottle drill to try to get some feel. Filmed myself and I noticed I was collapsing trying my best not to - keeping my elbow out wide (lunch box drill)

Then I remembered reading a couple of days ago to break down the door with the throwing shoulder. Relaxed my wrist and arm - BOOM. Straight down the tunnel on every throw. Didn't think about keeping my elbow out but the tendency was more lag, less collapse and consistent release. Just by a single swing thought.

Tried the water bottle drill again and snapped the cap off the bottle. Earlier it never left my hand.

Went home happy and thirsty.

 

[RowingBoats]

Inspiring thread. I've revisited the Beto drill the last couple of days, not having tried it in a year.

Much easier now to get some decent distance and some glide as you pick up on things a long the way. Experimented with grip pressure to force some snap without much added benefit.

Went back to SW22s more free flowing one leg and results were a bit more distance but less consistent release. Did the water bottle drill to try to get some feel. Filmed myself and I noticed I was collapsing trying my best not to - keeping my elbow out wide (lunch box drill)

Then I remembered reading a couple of days ago to break down the door with the throwing shoulder. Relaxed my wrist and arm - BOOM. Straight down the tunnel on every throw. Didn't think about keeping my elbow out but the tendency was more lag, less collapse and consistent release. Just by a single swing thought.

Tried the water bottle drill again and snapped the cap off the bottle. Earlier it never left my hand.

Went home happy and thirsty.

The water bottle drill sketches me out so hard lol.

 

[Sheep]

Good eye.

This also goes to a larger point about us reviewing form here. I chose Jakub to make a point about what I see as a clear sideways right arm extension out to the hit aka hammer path. However he is a new player relatively speaking and may not exemplify every aspect of form correctly.

We all have to stay cognizant of the fact that no one has perfect form. Some pros may even have flaws that are potentials for injury. That's where PSA #4 comes from. Variety in form is the spice of finding snap. Or something.

A great example of why you should not ever try and copy pro form.
A lot of them have bad habits they have weird corrections for that make it work.

They have done it so long that they can play the error, and people try and copy this stuff cause its their fav player. its like NOOO. stay in your lane bruh, (or bruhette)

We certainly have many inquiring minds regarding technique. I laud those seeking better form. I am only here to suggest the there is no secret........................THROW IT HARD!!

DISCS GO WOOOOOSH

The water bottle drill sketches me out so hard lol.

Did the water bottle draw you like one its french girls? =)

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

. they gave up on throwing the pen before they quit grip-locking the pen. they learned to snap a towel but never transferred any of that to their disc golf throw.
"[/COLOR]

I realize this is an old post. Sorry. I'm new to the site. Could you explain what "throwing the pen" is, pot link to the information?

 

[Jussi Alanko]

In this video Jaani himself, a.k.a DG Spin Doctor throws a dx roc to 430 feet, or 130 meters...

But i think, no i dont think,i know that he is throwing these disc at fullpower, but still 430feets in a 4 speed disc which have zero turn is quite good effort...



^^this is in finnish and do not have any subtitles, but i have taken this screenshot and i think that this is all that we need to know...

 

[Brychanus]

Dude can rip it, no doubt!