2019 USDGC (Jomez lovefest optional)

[Jolt]

IF it should have been a playoff starting on hole 17.. would Koling tee of first? ( hot round )

On a hole like 17 you really can play of the other players mistakes

 

[Harold Duvall]

Old Hole 1 was included in the playoff rotation to help to keep the action centered around the clubhouse where the crowd and the media teams would be. Crowd and media logistics have become central to the arena experience, and hopefully will play an even larger role in the Championship's future. Old Hole 1 has decided past playoffs, so it seemed worthy of inclusion. I enjoyed a fun, family moment on Saturday afternoon as the lead group came into the back stretch with Andrew's brother Riley helping David Shope move the target from Arena #1 to playoff 1 and Andrew's sister Katie sweeping off the tee to Official Starter Andy Greene's standard while I gave the guardian bushes a last minute haircut. The planning notes for 2020 include having the playoff hole ready for practice.

 

[Chains Bailey]

The framing of this argument ignores inherent systemic gender bias, and is therefore flawed as a counter argument.

The USWNT should make more $$ than the USMNT. They play in ****tier conditions, on a ****tier schedule, etc. and still are a FAR more decorated team.

Being more decorated is irrelevant. "Fair Pay" would result in the women's team making less money, as they now make more in terms of what they generate verse the men. The only "gender bias" between the USMNT and USWNT is that the women get a higher percentage of what they generate which, if people were honest with themselves, is unfair to the men's team.

This is not the same situation as disc golf.

I was not referencing disc golf - only the comment about the false inequities of our national soccer teams. I may have not been clear about that.

 

[JTacoma03]

Being more decorated is irrelevant. "Fair Pay" would result in the women's team making less money, as they now make more in terms of what they generate verse the men. The only "gender bias" between the USMNT and USWNT is that the women get a higher percentage of what they generate which, if people were honest with themselves, is unfair to the men's team.



I was not referencing disc golf - only the comment about the false inequities of our national soccer teams. I may have not been clear about that.

Completely disagree, but this is not the forum for this discussion.

 

[wolfmandragon]

Completely disagree, but this is not the forum for this discussion.

Yet you made several strong arguments earlier. If you don't think said debate sould be had, then don't make said strong comments.

Pot meet kettle.

 

[ChefKoolaid]

The womens team makes a higher percentage of profits than the mens team. That's a fact and I don't see how this is debatable. Equal pay would hurt their pay at this point.

 

[ThrowBot]

Wow, Thready McDrifterson.

Getting things back on track:
I really like Climo's commentary on the SpinTV post-produced coverage. I was ready to write him off as a sentimental keepsake: out of touch with the modern game, and/or bad at expressing his thoughts. But neither was true. He had great insights, and his frank delivery style left no questions on the table.

Part of his success was that he didn't seem to be trying too hard. Didn't try to be funny, and didn't feel the need to fill every second of the coverage with mindless banter. But he has natural credibility so he doesn't need to go out of the way to try and sound extra smart. And I think his low monotone voice goes well with the "that's just the way it is" commentary style.

 

[McCready]

I love Climo's commentary too. Very insightful, great delivery and sounds exactly like Bob Ross.

 

[Horsman]

Yet you made several strong arguments earlier. If you don't think said debate sould be had, then don't make said strong comments.

Pot meet kettle.

Dont bother with JT. He has shown multiple on here that he cant be reasoned with. His mind is closed and he will fight tooth and nail for what he thinks is correct.

 

[wolfmandragon]

I love Climo's commentary too. Very insightful, great delivery and sounds exactly like Bob Ross.

If Bob Ross had a 3 pack a day habit.

His insight is worth the rasp though.

 

[perklc]

If Bob Ross had a 3 pack a day habit.

His insight is worth the rasp though.

Eh, I'm not sure about that. I didn't bother with the back 9 round 1, or anything after, because I couldn't take it.

 

[DG_player]

Reality is Reality.

The USWNT actually makes MORE than the men's team in terms of what they produce.

The USWNT makes 14% of the money they generate, while the men's team makes 9%.

The cry of "Equal Pay" would actually result in the women making less than what they do now.

Along with disc golf, I really enjoy watching the women's side of each sport. I can relate to their level of play much better in disc golf and soccer. I, also, enjoy that our USWNT is outstandingly talented.

Those are BS numbers. They ignore the US soccer revenue that comes from sponsorships and TV rights, which account for the majority of revenue. They are sold as a bundle. The only way your narrative works is if you pretend that the mens team is responsible for half of this.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Completely disagree, but this is not the forum for this discussion.

You can disagree, but that would still leave you completely wrong. Which is fine, I have been wrong many times in my life, this is just not one of them.

I realize this is a thread drift and that participating in it can reflect poorly on my DGCR Credit Score, but I will risk the damage. So, if I am going to go all "Drifty" on here, may as well make it worth it.

I enjoy reading DGCR and have for a long time. What I have seen creeping into the forum is this misinformed SJW narrative that is rarely challenged. It needs to be challenged so that actual realistic progress can be made without driving many people into just abandoning efforts due to the real chance they will be the target of unwarranted and unfounded criticism from the SJW crowd.

Lets start with "inherent systemic gender bias" - this does not exist in modern day sports along with almost all other facets of life in the USA. Specifically regarding sports, there is equal opportunity for everyone - you can not expect or force equal outcome.

As I thought more about this comment "This is not the same situation as disc golf." In reference to the similarities between the USWNT and professional women disc golfers, I realized that it is also incorrect.

It very much parallels the USWNT in the financial aspect. Often the women's payouts will exceed what would, in reality, be fair when compared to other divisions.

In disc golf, there is plenty of equal opportunity for females to participate in the game on all levels. In fact, I would argue that from local scenes to our governing body the PDGA, great efforts have been made to encourage more female participation.

If there were such great demand or participation on the women's side of disc golf, I believe that it would take the usual course of splitting off into it's own entity. Maybe with the PDGA guiding the new WPDGA until it is on solid ground. And that is not a bad thing - many sports have taken this route to great success.

There needs to be push-back on the SJW mentality that the disc golf community in its current state is somehow the reason women decide not to participate in the sport. That line of thinking is not just wrong, but dilutes any discussion on the subject to the point where little positive is ever done in a practical manner. Other fantastical lingo used like "Toxic Masculinity" does not help either, as this phrase holds no place in reality. Both genders have positives and negatives and these characteristics are on exhibit in the real world daily.

Laying any blame at the feet of the current disc golf community, men or anything else not related directly to women for their choices of not participating in this sport is disingenuous and simply untrue.

IMO, to further the efforts already being taken by the disc golf community to encourage women to participate we all need to rid the discussions of these unfounded narratives and work in the realm of what is actually attainable and then build on that. Also, we need to accept that women are not as interested in the sport of disc golf as men and cater at an equal level to those that have chosen to be involved - blowing up any practical ideas with the SJW rhetoric does a disservice to the women already here.

Now that is a Need for Speed' level drift!



Also, I love Jomez and the USDGC was great

 

[Chains Bailey]

Those are BS numbers. They ignore the US soccer revenue that comes from sponsorships and TV rights, which account for the majority of revenue. They are sold as a bundle. The only way your narrative works is if you pretend that the mens team is responsible for half of this.

The numbers have gotten much closer to even in recent years, but that still leaves the % being off. If you want equal, then both teams should make the same % of what they generate.

Again, I prefer to support the USWNT and watch their events verse the USMNT, but that does not change the inequities of pay favoring the women historically.

I am going to refrain from this subject for a while - My DGCR Credit Score is below 400 at this point due to drifting' - I will let the numbers speak for themselves in reference to the national soccer teams.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Those are BS numbers. They ignore the US soccer revenue that comes from sponsorships and TV rights, which account for the majority of revenue. They are sold as a bundle. The only way your narrative works is if you pretend that the mens team is responsible for half of this.

Those are BS numbers. They ignore the US soccer revenue that comes from sponsorships and TV rights, which account for the majority of revenue. They are sold as a bundle. The only way your narrative works is if you pretend that the mens team is responsible for half of this.

Screw it, I will pay cash.

I should qualify what I was posting with some numbers and examples.

I am a soccer fan, that is what prompted me to post originally when I read the post with misinformation on the national team pay scales.

I have read a lot about the two teams and even the outlets that report on them agree that the pay system is convoluted almost beyond understanding. You can get cherry picked numbers that support each outlet's agenda, but the BIG number is landed upon in a general consensus regardless of the outlet.

Each team, the women and men's, both have separate CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreements) and reading through the details from yesterday to a decade ago is mind boggling. The "Bundling" you refer to is correct, but the outlets report that as a single entity. The sponsorships and TV rights are purchased for US National Soccer overall, not separately. From what I have read the women's, as of recent years, is calculated to generate more revenue in that regard, but it is a small difference between the two teams and pales in comparison to overall numbers. (See below)

Some examples of the back and forth numbers:
- Men have a per day expense amount of $75 and Women have $60 (2015 it was equal)
- Women get paid a salary all year and men only get paid when they play
- Female bonus in the World Cup ($15,000) / male players ($55,000)
- Women get paid while playing in their respective leagues all year / men do not

And then you get into which team plays more games - how rigorous is the World Cup qualifying - which team draws more people to games - how much revenue is produced per game in regards to each team and so on.

It is fascinating and muddy at the same time. If you ever get into researching any of it, try to choose an objective outlet. They seem to give a more complete picture of the two separate CBAs and overall benefits of each team.


The numbers agreed on overall by outlets below are used as the basic measuring stick. The smaller details of the separate CBAs are minimal when compared to the below numbers.

1. The 2015 Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

2. The men's World Cup in Russia generated more than $6 billion in revenue; the participating teams shared about $400 million. That is less than 7 percent of overall revenue. Meanwhile, the 2019 Women's World Cup made somewhere in the region of $131 million, doling out $30 million, well more than 20 percent of collected revenue, to the participating teams.

The numbers are pretty obvious when you lose the small differences.

With all that said - I would proudly throw on a USWNT jersey in a heart beat.

 

[Chains Bailey]

Those are BS numbers. They ignore the US soccer revenue that comes from sponsorships and TV rights, which account for the majority of revenue. They are sold as a bundle. The only way your narrative works is if you pretend that the mens team is responsible for half of this.

I ramble on in posts, an on going character flaw I doubt I will ever conquer - here is a direct response to your opinion.

From the Washington Post - "USSF sells sponsorships (which include broadcast rights for all U.S. Soccer games) as a bundle. The documents we reviewed don't distinguish which team brings in more sponsorships or how sponsorship dollars are allocated."

From Politifact - "Specifically, from 2016-18, the women's team brought in $50.8 million in revenue, while the men's team brought in $49.9 million. That's a difference of less than 2% in the women's favor. Looking year by year, 2016 was actually the only year in which the women's team generated more revenue from games — $24.11 million, compared to $22.24 million for the men. In 2017, both teams brought in about the same revenue at $14.61 million, and in 2018, the men's team brought in $13 million compared to the women's $12.03 million."


I believe those are two outlets with varying degrees of agenda, but put together is a fair assessment. As I said, in this regard things have become more even, but minimal in difference verse the larger overall numbers in my other post.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

With each paragraph I laughed a little more. I'm the one who originally brought up the USWNT, but I'm too busy with my SJW work to post more.

You can disagree, but that would still leave you completely wrong. Which is fine, I have been wrong many times in my life, this is just not one of them.

I realize this is a thread drift and that participating in it can reflect poorly on my DGCR Credit Score, but I will risk the damage. So, if I am going to go all "Drifty" on here, may as well make it worth it.

I enjoy reading DGCR and have for a long time. What I have seen creeping into the forum is this misinformed SJW narrative that is rarely challenged. It needs to be challenged so that actual realistic progress can be made without driving many people into just abandoning efforts due to the real chance they will be the target of unwarranted and unfounded criticism from the SJW crowd.

Lets start with "inherent systemic gender bias" - this does not exist in modern day sports along with almost all other facets of life in the USA. Specifically regarding sports, there is equal opportunity for everyone - you can not expect or force equal outcome.

As I thought more about this comment "This is not the same situation as disc golf." In reference to the similarities between the USWNT and professional women disc golfers, I realized that it is also incorrect.

It very much parallels the USWNT in the financial aspect. Often the women's payouts will exceed what would, in reality, be fair when compared to other divisions.

In disc golf, there is plenty of equal opportunity for females to participate in the game on all levels. In fact, I would argue that from local scenes to our governing body the PDGA, great efforts have been made to encourage more female participation.

If there were such great demand or participation on the women's side of disc golf, I believe that it would take the usual course of splitting off into it's own entity. Maybe with the PDGA guiding the new WPDGA until it is on solid ground. And that is not a bad thing - many sports have taken this route to great success.

There needs to be push-back on the SJW mentality that the disc golf community in its current state is somehow the reason women decide not to participate in the sport. That line of thinking is not just wrong, but dilutes any discussion on the subject to the point where little positive is ever done in a practical manner. Other fantastical lingo used like "Toxic Masculinity" does not help either, as this phrase holds no place in reality. Both genders have positives and negatives and these characteristics are on exhibit in the real world daily.

Laying any blame at the feet of the current disc golf community, men or anything else not related directly to women for their choices of not participating in this sport is disingenuous and simply untrue.

IMO, to further the efforts already being taken by the disc golf community to encourage women to participate we all need to rid the discussions of these unfounded narratives and work in the realm of what is actually attainable and then build on that. Also, we need to accept that women are not as interested in the sport of disc golf as men and cater at an equal level to those that have chosen to be involved - blowing up any practical ideas with the SJW rhetoric does a disservice to the women already here.

Now that is a Need for Speed' level drift!



Also, I love Jomez and the USDGC was great

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

I couldn't stop myself: who decided you were the spokesperson for women who don't play disc golf? Your argument amounts to, "I'm a man and I say men can't be blamed."

You can disagree, but that would still leave you completely wrong. Which is fine, I have been wrong many times in my life, this is just not one of them.

I realize this is a thread drift and that participating in it can reflect poorly on my DGCR Credit Score, but I will risk the damage. So, if I am going to go all "Drifty" on here, may as well make it worth it.

I enjoy reading DGCR and have for a long time. What I have seen creeping into the forum is this misinformed SJW narrative that is rarely challenged. It needs to be challenged so that actual realistic progress can be made without driving many people into just abandoning efforts due to the real chance they will be the target of unwarranted and unfounded criticism from the SJW crowd.

Lets start with "inherent systemic gender bias" - this does not exist in modern day sports along with almost all other facets of life in the USA. Specifically regarding sports, there is equal opportunity for everyone - you can not expect or force equal outcome.

As I thought more about this comment "This is not the same situation as disc golf." In reference to the similarities between the USWNT and professional women disc golfers, I realized that it is also incorrect.

It very much parallels the USWNT in the financial aspect. Often the women's payouts will exceed what would, in reality, be fair when compared to other divisions.

In disc golf, there is plenty of equal opportunity for females to participate in the game on all levels. In fact, I would argue that from local scenes to our governing body the PDGA, great efforts have been made to encourage more female participation.

If there were such great demand or participation on the women's side of disc golf, I believe that it would take the usual course of splitting off into it's own entity. Maybe with the PDGA guiding the new WPDGA until it is on solid ground. And that is not a bad thing - many sports have taken this route to great success.

There needs to be push-back on the SJW mentality that the disc golf community in its current state is somehow the reason women decide not to participate in the sport. That line of thinking is not just wrong, but dilutes any discussion on the subject to the point where little positive is ever done in a practical manner. Other fantastical lingo used like "Toxic Masculinity" does not help either, as this phrase holds no place in reality. Both genders have positives and negatives and these characteristics are on exhibit in the real world daily.

Laying any blame at the feet of the current disc golf community, men or anything else not related directly to women for their choices of not participating in this sport is disingenuous and simply untrue.

IMO, to further the efforts already being taken by the disc golf community to encourage women to participate we all need to rid the discussions of these unfounded narratives and work in the realm of what is actually attainable and then build on that. Also, we need to accept that women are not as interested in the sport of disc golf as men and cater at an equal level to those that have chosen to be involved - blowing up any practical ideas with the SJW rhetoric does a disservice to the women already here.

Now that is a Need for Speed' level drift!



Also, I love Jomez and the USDGC was great

 

[DG_player]

Screw it, I will pay cash.

I should qualify what I was posting with some numbers and examples.

I am a soccer fan, that is what prompted me to post originally when I read the post with misinformation on the national team pay scales.

I have read a lot about the two teams and even the outlets that report on them agree that the pay system is convoluted almost beyond understanding. You can get cherry picked numbers that support each outlet's agenda, but the BIG number is landed upon in a general consensus regardless of the outlet.

Each team, the women and men's, both have separate CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreements) and reading through the details from yesterday to a decade ago is mind boggling. The "Bundling" you refer to is correct, but the outlets report that as a single entity. The sponsorships and TV rights are purchased for US National Soccer overall, not separately. From what I have read the women's, as of recent years, is calculated to generate more revenue in that regard, but it is a small difference between the two teams and pales in comparison to overall numbers. (See below)

Some examples of the back and forth numbers:
- Men have a per day expense amount of $75 and Women have $60 (2015 it was equal)
- Women get paid a salary all year and men only get paid when they play
- Female bonus in the World Cup ($15,000) / male players ($55,000)
- Women get paid while playing in their respective leagues all year / men do not

And then you get into which team plays more games - how rigorous is the World Cup qualifying - which team draws more people to games - how much revenue is produced per game in regards to each team and so on.

It is fascinating and muddy at the same time. If you ever get into researching any of it, try to choose an objective outlet. They seem to give a more complete picture of the two separate CBAs and overall benefits of each team.


The numbers agreed on overall by outlets below are used as the basic measuring stick. The smaller details of the separate CBAs are minimal when compared to the below numbers.

1. The 2015 Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

2. The men's World Cup in Russia generated more than $6 billion in revenue; the participating teams shared about $400 million. That is less than 7 percent of overall revenue. Meanwhile, the 2019 Women's World Cup made somewhere in the region of $131 million, doling out $30 million, well more than 20 percent of collected revenue, to the participating teams.

The numbers are pretty obvious when you lose the small differences.

With all that said - I would proudly throw on a USWNT jersey in a heart beat.

So...

The women and men bring in fairly equal amounts of revenue to US Soccer (assuming you believe that sponsorship and broadcast are 50/50), but FIFA globally generates more revenue from men than women, so US men should make 2.5 times what US women soccer players make?

 

[DG_player]

IF it should have been a playoff starting on hole 17.. would Koling tee of first? ( hot round )

On a hole like 17 you really can play of the other players mistakes

To get back to the original thread:

Having 17 be the first playoff hole would be totally unfair, there's such a huge advantage to throwing last on this whole. Although I guess it would be par for the course for a tournament littered with random unfairness.