A few questions: disc selection, accuracy, thumbers

[ky chris]

Here's my background: Started last December, age 37, drive around 310' laser measured. I'm shooting at or below regular par on my local courses.

Here's my questions:

1. My local course is heavily wooded and most paths to the basket are curved. Most distances are from 200-300 which would be Wizard and Roc. However, I can't seem to get the curves I need from these discs and end up using Cyclones, Solfs, or Preds. Am I just not getting it and should continue to work on my Roc and Wizard lines? When I'm on a more open course where lines are straighter I don't have any problems throwing the Roc and Wizard.

2. Again at my local wooded course many holes have very narrow gaps to shoot through. It might just be a mental thing but I feel the most confidence in hitting gaps when I throw hard with a driver like my SOLF. Even though something might be Roc distance, a Roc doesn't seem to leave my hand as smoothly and I feel like I get less left to right accuracy. Is this typical or something I need to work on?

3. At a different local course that is heavily wooded with a lot of very narrow gaps I almost exclusively use my thumber. I feel extremely confident in where my thumber is going to go and can get it through gaps that I wouldn't have a chance with my backhand. Since I've been using it my scores have dropped on this course by about eight strokes. On other courses including my wooded home course I only throw the thumber a few times a round on particular holes or approach shots. Do you think that using a thumber this much is a crutch? Should I keep throwing the backhand on these narrow gaps to hopefully eventually get the accuracy I need?

Thanks for any replys,

chris

 

[noah1]

Chris, not sure why you're having troubles particularly with the Wizards. If I take a wizard and give it a line...It stays on that line and doesn't leave it. The only time it does leave that line is when I do an anhyzer flip. But both your rocs and wizards should stay on the line. Are you not throwing hard enough?

 

[SkaBob]

It's hard to give a lot of advice without knowing much about what sort of shots these gaps you're trying to hit are on...

Any time accuracy is important though, it's hard to argue with a Comet. Hyzer, Anhyzer, straight, it doesn't matter. It nails them all.

If height is an issue though, you're not necessarily doing too badly throwing a driver. Nothing kills a mid or a putter getting through a wooded hole like a low hanging tree branch...

As for the thumber, if it were me I'd use the thumber for leagues or tourneys and work on the backhand when playing casually...

 

[garublador1]

1. I haven't found Wizards and Rocs to be all that "workable" compared to the discs you mentioned. It's possible to get them to hold different lines, but I find it a lot easier with something like a Cyclone. I'd work on it in the field, but what you described is common.

2. I'd definitely work on that. It's probably a mental thing and you just have to get confident enough to do it more frequently. If I had better advice I wouldn't have the same problem, too.

3. Again, something to work on, but having the thumber for those types of shots is good. The more ways you have to perform a shot the more options you'll have. When you get in the situation where you need a line like that you can pick the shot you're most comfortable with rather than just having the one option.

 

[Timko]

quote from the pdga board. This was reguarding the monarch and learning to throw it far and straight...

When I moved to FL I threw all stable discs. My "understable" discs included ones that would only flip if thrown hard and flat. When I got down here I was lucky enough to get to know Ken Climo and play some rounds with him. One day we were on one of the easiest holes on our course, a 280' spike hyzer. There was a bit of a headwind. After we threw our main drives we started throwing other discs. After we'd thrown all of our stable discs we continued. Kenny gave me one of his beat Rocs and told me to throw it smoothly with a lot of hyzer. I threw it and it flipped over the road. Kenny then took his roller Roc and threw a spike hyzer that never flipped at all and landed right at the basket. He told me he used to work on that type of thing a lot to learn precise speed control. Lesson: turning over a disc is something the thrower does, not the disc. We were throwing old beat Rocs...I'm sure Kenny could throw the Monarch and make it look like a Monster.

Lesson: Learn how to seperate your snap or spin control from your speed control. A 280' shot thrown with a roc with 100% spin and 60% speed will not flip up if thrown smoothly and correctly, no matter how beaten up it is.

 

[t i m]

1. curved paths can be hard (or almost impossible) to hit with a putter/midrange, depending on how hard the curve is, where it is in the design of the hole, and how high the ceiling is on the hole. Most midranges and putters need some height to get much of a curve. If you're trying to throw down wooded holes with hanging branches, you are much, much better off sticking with slow drivers that you can throw low and that will curve more on a low line (and/or skip at the end). It's hard to tell you what will work best for a particular hole without knowing more about the shots. Sharp, low-line curves can only be achieved with a driver -- midranges/putters don't have the proper aerodynamics to hit those lines. So use the disc most appropriate to the hole, regardless of the distance. I find myself with a lot of 100-300' shots (usually approaches) that I use firebird on, because that is the disc that will curve down the line I need it to to get it near the hole.

The other thing to think about in regards to this question is "where is the putting green?" -- some holes have almost zero chance of getting directly to the basket because of where the trees are. A lot of people make the mistake of trying to throw directly under the basket every time instead of thinking about where the true "putting green" is and just trying to land there. On many holes where it is almost impossible to run directly to the basket, there might be a much easier line that will give you an open >30' putt at the basket. This happens a lot in the woods, and the smart players who utilize intelligent course management and envision landing in the putting green instead of landing in the basket on their drive end up with much better scores.

2. I know several people with this feeling -- they get their best accuracy hitting gaps when they throw with about 80-90 percent power, which can be a problem on shorter holes. There are basically only two ways around it: learn to throw touch shots, or learn to throw slower midranges/putters hard down those same lines. Both solutions require making sure your form is consistent. I would recommend reading through a few articles on backhand form, because if your form is right, hitting gaps becomes a lot easier. If you have questions, ask, and I or someone else will try to help. But for now, it would take too long to go into a digression on tips for consistent backhand form -- especially since I know they've been covered other places on this board in far more detail than I would have time to go into.

3. Most people eventually hurt their arm throwing a lot of thumbers. Some thumbers is fine, but relying upon it too often cases a lot more strain on your arm and joints. So in the interest of playing this sport for the next few decades, I would encourage you to work on your backhand in casual rounds. When you are practicing, and when there is nothing on the line, throw backhands. When you are in a tournament setting, throw thumbers until your backhand gets more consistent.

I have an above average forehand roller, and it is probably my most accurate shot to hit gaps, so I throw it a lot in the woods in tournament settings, even when its not necessarily the best shot to get to the pin. I know with the forehand roller, I can almost always card an easy three, but with the backhand, I may hit a birdie 1/5 shots, but I may also bogey 2/5 shots, so the more predictable shot wins out because it will give me a better average score. However, in casual rounds, I've been throwing 2-3 backhand shots and 1-2 forehand shots off the tee on gap holes holes, working on hitting my lines. And both my backhands and my forehand gap shots are improving -- they aren't flawless yet, and still card some bogeys, but the birdies are increasing, and therefore the average is getting closer and closer to all those 3s I would be taking with the flick rollers. In the interest of preserving your arm, it's of tremendous benefit to work on the backhand, since I think that causes the least stress to your body long term. But in the meantime, throw whatever you are most comfortable with when you are in tournament play.

 

[Johnnytothec]

I second everything Tim said.

I know that many people swear by the roc, but I had a similar problem with being able to throw all of my discs well except for the roc. I tried the Discraft Z Buzzz and love it.

 

[ky chris]

It's hard to give a lot of advice without knowing much about what sort of shots these gaps you're trying to hit are on...

Any time accuracy is important though, it's hard to argue with a Comet. Hyzer, Anhyzer, straight, it doesn't matter. It nails them all.

If height is an issue though, you're not necessarily doing too badly throwing a driver. Nothing kills a mid or a putter getting through a wooded hole like a low hanging tree branch...

First of all, thanks everyone for all of the nice responses.

I have trouble forgetting about height in determining disc selection and SkaBob nailed the problem I'm having with this course...all of the shots have a low ceiling that I can't work those discs like I can on other courses.

I feel like since I haven't played very long that if I can't make a disc do something that it's got to be me but I'm glad to know that in this situation I'm doing the right thing by throwing a driver.

 

[SkaBob]

Definitely. You CAN throw mids on a lot of shots like that, but if you're trying to progress in your game, always remember your best bet for lower scores is the higher percentage shot. It's easier, and less difficult to get a control driver where you need it to go sometimes.

Eventually, you'll learn to get your mids farther along on lower lines, but even then there're probably some holes on that course you'll end up with better odds throwing a driver.

 

[JR]

I second everything Tim said.

I know that many people swear by the roc, but I had a similar problem with being able to throw all of my discs well except for the roc. I tried the Discraft Z Buzzz and love it.

I've had a lot of success with a Latitude 64 Core Sparkle Opto plastic 178 lately. Discmania MD1 heavy in D-line when new is equally or more controllable. Both are longer than Rocs weight for weight in my limited experience. Both can fly on tight hyzers and straight long shots and mild annies on long shots. If you're not planning to throw down to the ground early and let the disc skip or slide. Not always a good idea thanks to rocks and roots. These discs are fairly close to fairway drivers in distance meaning there's not a lot gap in per cents of distance.

Getting several lines out of these and probably any other mid and putter is a lot easier with good late acceleration in the last 12" of the arm pull. Meaning helps with wrist part of snap. A good rate of acceleration helps too on top of starting quick acceleration that late (timing). Both timing/late beginning and great rate of acceleration happening together and you're getting there in a hurry. Both driving distance and controllability of slower discs on different lines. Aiming by weight of disc in the feeling of acceleration is really useful. So is lesser fade with more powerful wrist action.

Real world example of me from today regarding moving late acceleration later: In winds a new 12x Star Wraith didn't flex on a 20'+ apexed golfish s-curve throw without excessive nose down angle. Xcaliber was good for high max D any lines. Z Pred was the only good thing in my bag for low work. When the Wraith previously was too much for me on low line drives. Getting to 380' on best rips skipping a bit farther. Mids working even better mainly accuracy but straightness of flight line and repeatability also great and I _don't_ mind the added distance :-D

 

[cmlasley]

Just a tip - if you are having trouble getting your Rocs to hyzer hard, you can throw them with a little more wrist roll-under to get more lateral motion on the fade. It will never be as easy, but you'll eventually get it down enough that the accuracy of throwing the mid will make it worth it.

 

[JR]

Just a tip - if you are having trouble getting your Rocs to hyzer hard, you can throw them with a little more wrist roll-under to get more lateral motion on the fade. It will never be as easy, but you'll eventually get it down enough that the accuracy of throwing the mid will make it worth it.

I'm a fervent believer in wrist roll under also for understable low fade drivers flying on a rope to 340'(175 Champ Leo) or Monarch, Vision etc. farther. Occasional bigger rips too.

 

[GratefulDisc]

Lesson: Learn how to seperate your snap or spin control from your speed control. A 280' shot thrown with a roc with 100% spin and 60% speed will not flip up if thrown smoothly and correctly, no matter how beaten up it is.

:shock: It all makes sense now... I put tons of spin on everything but putts. And sometimes discs that should be crazy understable (beat roadrunner) hold a hyzer. How do you separate speed and spin?

 

[tumpsi]

Lesson: Learn how to seperate your snap or spin control from your speed control. A 280' shot thrown with a roc with 100% spin and 60% speed will not flip up if thrown smoothly and correctly, no matter how beaten up it is.

:shock: It all makes sense now... I put tons of spin on everything but putts. And sometimes discs that should be crazy understable (beat roadrunner) hold a hyzer. How do you separate speed and spin?

Wrist.

 

[DanTaylor]

3. Most people eventually hurt their arm throwing a lot of thumbers. Some thumbers is fine, but relying upon it too often cases a lot more strain on your arm and joints. So in the interest of playing this sport for the next few decades, I would encourage you to work on your backhand in casual rounds. When you are practicing, and when there is nothing on the line, throw backhands. When you are in a tournament setting, throw thumbers until your backhand gets more consistent.

This is solid advise. I am very good throwing the thumber and its already taking its toll on my arm and shoulder. Keep it in the bag for when there's just no other option but work on other parts of your game. I'm currently working on fore hand again since I can see I'm not going to be able to throw the thumber as much as I'd like. I'm 32 and the shoulder is getting torn up from the constant throwing of the thumbers, so just be careful.

 

[readysetstab]

i would have completely agreed about the thumbers about a month ago, but i've learned to throw them without strain on my shoulder/elbow. it has mostly to do with the follow through.

learn to throw a thumber correctly and you'll be fine. watch a lot of schwebby.

this isn't to say that you shouldn't practice your tight lines with backhands also. on holes like that (when i'm practicing), i usually throw every shot that i might consider during competition. just work on everything. no need to pick one or the other.