advice on running a handicap adjusted tournament

[rocktownedisc]

I would like to run a tournament for my local club where players can play on an even field. i have been keeping score averages of everyone through league play. i was wondering if anyone had any formulas for coming up with a good handicap system? or any advice? most of the people in my club do not have a pdga rating so it would be hard for me to base it off that. thank you for any advice you all can give me!

 

[discreid]

I run a handicap league locally. For figuring a handi I take 80% of their average. To keep the handicaps more dynamic I only average the last 3 rounds. For a tournament I would probably include more than 3 rounds in the average if possible.

 

[jtreadwell]

I've never understood the point of handicapping. I get that it makes for "even" play, but isn't a sport supposed to be a contest? What's the point of getting better if you can "win" against better players just by playing a little better than average?

 

[rocktownedisc]

i want to try and use it to get more people involved and try to get the newer players a chance and addicted to the sport. more of a teaching tool for newer less experienced players. the better players always when tags and regular league play and it seems numbers have fallen off some do to the casual players getting frustrated with never having a chance. we wouldn't get rid of other competitions just use it as a way to include and encourage more people. at least that is what i am hoping will happen. any other thoughts on how this can be accomplished?

 

[Lewis]

It shouldn't be too complicated. Just figure everyone's average round score, and subtract that from course par to calculate a handicap (averages over par will have a negative handicap). Then add each player's handicap to his round score (adding a negative reduces the score) to get a handicapped score. I'm not sure you can do anything but play tie breakers straight up. If you want to keep an advantage for the more skilled players, then only give a player a certain percent of his handicap when correcting his score, such as the 80% suggested above. For first-time players, give them a handicap only after they play one or two rounds, or have a "standard" handicap that you offer new players.

A handicapped league has the double-benefit of being welcoming to less skilled players and rewarding to players who are improving their skills. You may also want to drop old scores off of a player's handicap calculation after a certain number of days or weeks so you don't give too much of an advantage to a player who continually improves throughout the whole season.

It shouldn't be too difficult to set this up and record it on a spreadsheet.

 

[DiscNutt123]

i want to try and use it to get more people involved and try to get the newer players a chance and addicted to the sport. more of a teaching tool for newer less experienced players. the better players always when tags and regular league play and it seems numbers have fallen off some do to the casual players getting frustrated with never having a chance. we wouldn't get rid of other competitions just use it as a way to include and encourage more people. at least that is what i am hoping will happen. any other thoughts on how this can be accomplished?

Casual players don't spend the time we (competitive players) do in practice and trying to get better. So why should they be subtracted strokes for playing bad while we get added strokes for playing good? Punishment for success and reward for failure?? Makes no sense..

Another guy and I are about to start a league here in Midland, TX and we are having this discussion right now. He wants handicaps, I want divisions. We're gonna have a vote at the first mini. What I was thinking is if you win twice in a division, over a certain period of time, you have to move up.

 

[scarpfish]

I've never understood the point of handicapping. I get that it makes for "even" play, but isn't a sport supposed to be a contest? What's the point of getting better if you can "win" against better players just by playing a little better than average?

Its still a contest, just one played by different rules. What you're forgetting is that if somebody wins by playing a little better than average, that their average will change, and things are going to be a little tougher next time.

If people going into a contest know full and well that they're going to be donators, they may not show up. Of course, if you do handicaps, the better players who would fare better in a straight up scenario might not show up.

In all honesty, if I were running a singles league and the numbers were big enough to make it feasible, I would have a straight up pro division, a straight up Am division and a handicap Am division. To be eligible for handicap Am, a player would have to play straight up for at least 3 weeks.

 

[1978]

Handicap leagues are popular but just don't work for the experienced player. I'm 980 rated. I need to bust tail to gain 1 stroke. Teach a rec a sidearm and he gains 5. So I can never win at a handicap league... I played one down in Florida when I was visiting. Won in raw score but finished 8 of 11 because of handicap. (I shot -3 and was started at 0 handicap!!!) So 7 of 10 people beat their handicap by more than 3. If you don't want experienced players to have a fair shot to win run a handicap league. Handicap leagues in my experiences tend to have higher turnout, but eventually you lose the people that stop improving or cannot improve farther (even though they may be raw scoring the best)

They are great to offer to people who do not feel confident in their skills and wont attend league play. Also, you have to stick to 1 course while league events can travel around.

 

[Alin]

Casual players don't spend the time we (competitive players) do in practice and trying to get better. So why should they be subtracted strokes for playing bad while we get added strokes for playing good? Punishment for success and reward for failure?? Makes no sense..

Another guy and I are about to start a league here in Midland, TX and we are having this discussion right now. He wants handicaps, I want divisions. We're gonna have a vote at the first mini. What I was thinking is if you win twice in a division, over a certain period of time, you have to move up.

Actually, one of the handicap's that I participate in had this very issue. Handicap's are strictly for the newer players...the better players are typically not going to cash at a handicap event. So, what is the incentive to keep the better player coming out. After all, how is the newer player gonna learn if there is no one there to learn from.

So, what we devised was a handicap broken out by division. There is an advanced, intermediate, and rec division. Advanced are all players from -5 handi and under (those that start the round at -5 all the way to the very best player). Int. goes from -6 to -11 and rec is all players from -12 to the worst handi, which we cap at +20.

With this in place, the better players are not competing with someone whose got a huge handi and is improving. Also, the new player, who may be intimidated by the pro level player, is not trying to beat the better player. There are other gimmicks that the club does to keep players interested; however, iit's not about the money, it's about the disc golf!!

 

[Spinthrift]

I've never understood the point of handicapping. I get that it makes for "even" play, but isn't a sport supposed to be a contest? What's the point of getting better if you can "win" against better players just by playing a little better than average?

Handicap sytems are a very competitive way to determine who best steps up their game. A handicap sytem allows newer players to experience tournament or league formats while observing and learning from those more skilled. It also lets players whose skills have topped out have a shot at rewards if they play better than their handicap.

I think it's tough to apply handicap scoring to a one-time event, with it being best suited for league play. Disc golf does not have a viable overall handicap system that can apply to all courses played. Unlike ball golf, where all courses are par 70, 71 or 72 (with adjustment easily made), DG pars are all over the map.

Charlotte has had a handicap league at Sugaw Creek Park (par 54) for about six years. When Californian Fred Dean moved here, he brought the format and offered to start Sugaw Creek Am League. I began directing SCAL about three and a half years ago. Since I've been doing it, the format has shown enormous appeal, with more than 700 unique players participating in that time.

Our league is a $5 entry with payout in plastic. I use principally F2s/X-outs because the lower cost means we can up the payout from 33% of players to about 45%, depending on how many CTPS we have (always at least four, thanks to sponsor Alpine Ski Center).

We publish a handicap sheet after each event so players can chart their progress (or lack thereof). Example: http://charlottedgc.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=390

The most important thing to know about setting a handicap system is:

It's not about average. It's about capability.

This is key to preventing the inevitable sandbagging. And I don't care what anybody says, players will blow rounds to raise their handicaps. In ball golf, sytems vary, but one thing doesn't -- high-scoring rounds get dropped. My brother's club league takes the last 20 rounds and drops the highest 10. This gets to the heart of the player's capability, but the system is not very dynamic and it takes a lot to move the handicap.

In our league, we take the six most recent rounds, drop the high score and average the remaining five. (Until a player reaches six, it's the average with any wack-o scores dropped.) The dropped score discourages tanking an already bad round, or keeps a weather-ruined score from having overt effect. Especially for improving or newer players, the record of scores is a clear indication of progress. I've watched players come in shooting in the 70s and work their way down from -15 to single digits. Our maximum handicap for men is -15, women and young people -25 and little kids as case warrants. While you don't want to discourage unskilled players, realistically you have to draw the line somewhere or rounds would take forever with newbies shooting 108.

We run Thursday evenings spring and summer; Sundays fall and winter. On any given SCAL round, we'll have new players, 990+ players, kids, seniors, women, couples, fathers and daughters, blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos, etc. It is by far the most diverse and effective regular event that advances our Club's goal of promoting the sport.

I guess I like the format so much because it made such an impression on me. About five years ago my son said "I played disc golf with some buddies and it was great fun. You wanna go?" Shortly after, we found Fred's handicap league (shooting in the 70s) and became regulars, absorbing everything we could from Charlotte's very good golfers. And I can look back at my rounds over the years and see how and when I built my scratch game.

I'll not kid you, it's a good deal of work to do it right, but you know you're on to something when the event draws full fields of 72+ players for a Thursday evening round, as happened several times last summer. And the killer thing is, for an event that big, we're giving away 30+ discs, which when lined up on the payout table can be right mesmerizing.

Good luck, and if there's any help I can give, I'm happy to.

 

[Spinthrift]

Handicap leagues are popular but just don't work for the experienced player. I'm 980 rated. I need to bust tail to gain 1 stroke. Teach a rec a sidearm and he gains 5. So I can never win at a handicap league... I played one down in Florida when I was visiting. Won in raw score but finished 8 of 11 because of handicap. (I shot -3 and was started at 0 handicap!!!) So 7 of 10 people beat their handicap by more than 3. If you don't want experienced players to have a fair shot to win run a handicap league. Handicap leagues in my experiences tend to have higher turnout, but eventually you lose the people that stop improving or cannot improve farther (even though they may be raw scoring the best)

They are great to offer to people who do not feel confident in their skills and wont attend league play. Also, you have to stick to 1 course while league events can travel around.

While I agree with you, Mark, your higher skills also give you a much better shot at payout by CTPs or ace runs.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. DGU has the best handicapping system out there for leagues and for individuals to track their own scores and handicaps. www.discgolfunited.com

Handicaps are dynamically adjusted each week and special factors automatically built-in to prevent bagging and to accelerate handicap reduction for fast improving palyers. Plus, it accounts for differences in course SSA values to adjust handicaps accordingly.

 

[jtreadwell]

So there are some good points, but it still just seems like catering to the weaker players to make them feel better. If you don't have fun at tournaments when you don't win, either use that as fuel to get better or stop playing tournaments. If a handicap tourney is one of many options, then maybe it's OK, but most players I know would rather lose than get a handicap and "win".

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you're a big fan of divisional play versus handicapping, recognize that you just prefer a weaker form of handicapping. Anything other than one division is just a matter of choosing which of several ways you can level the playing field.

The best players should be crying for a well-run handicap league and yet they seem to be the most negative. With an 80-90% adjustment factor built into handicaps, it's still a sucker bet for the least skilled players over the span of the league. The top three rated players in a handicap league will win more money over the span of 12 league days if the handicap field is 2-3 times the size of their Open only field which it typically would be.

But then top players aren't always that sharp with the math. Take the example where two equal players bet $10 a round. After ten rounds, they should have broken even. The, take two players where one is five throws worse than the other and give him 4 throws a round. After ten rounds, the better player would be up $20-$40 even though the worse player might win 3 or 4 matches of the 10.

The point is, the worse player wouldn't play the better player for $10 a match without a handicap or odds. So the better player wins nada if worse players won't play him for money straight up.

 

[Lewis]

Amen to everything CGK said in that last post. If you want to grow the sport and grow the participation in your club's events, offering a handicapped league will draw in players who otherwise wouldn't take the first step towards your leagues. I don't think it's the only format you should offer, but I don't think anyone here is advocating that. My club has a handicapped league on Tuesday nights and a "straight up" league on Thursday nights. A few of the same players come out two nights a week, but mostly it's two separate crowds, and the handicapped league tends to get more people on average than the "straight up" league.

Another thing for the dominant high-level players to remember is that if your club can draw more players into the competition by offering an easier transitional step towards serious competition, you will eventually have more competition in the upper tiers, and therefore more fun. :thmbup:

 

[austin234]

whenever this subject gets brought up i notice its only the "better" players that get upset. seems that they dont wanna lose to someone who they would normally beat 9/10

we recently starting giving handicap at our singles weekly and its increased the turn out 4x. its no fun to play amd give your money away if thers no chance of winning, idc who you are. this "you gotta donate for a while before you can win" stuff doesnt make people wanna come out. the top players still usually win anyway, the strokes just give hope that if you shoot hott and they shoot bad you might win. im all for tournaments having divisions but i think handicap leagues are what get alot more people into competition!

 

[Kris C]

We just had our 1st club meeting, and this subject was brought up. What we compromised on was this: There are 2 colors of bag-tags, handicap and scratch. You can buy either or both tags and the cards won't be divided by tags so the people who want to play handicap league can still be on the same card as the top scratch players, but only competing against other handicappers or scratch players. I think it sounds great on paper, and the club president has a spreadsheet created to calculate handicaps, so we'll see how it goes! We play 2 courses throughout the summer, so people who didn't play last years leagues will need to have 2 league rounds at each course before they have a handicap.