ALL Mach baskets should be outlawed in pro tournaments!

[SonicGuy]

Yep. And how long did it take to find out what those guys from Flint were doing? Not long. This town, Fountain Hills, is full of $500,000 homes. Does anyone really think they're gonna put up with what happened in Flint?

Really? 500k is a ton of money outside of paradise valley. Never thought of fountain hills as that affluent.

 

[lyleoross]

Yeah, I bet the salts from the fertilizer have a big role to play. I'm in Seattle, and as Lyle points out, it does indeed rain quite a bit, however corrosion isn't that big of a deal here, relatively speaking. One of my coworkers is Canadian, and she's remarked about how she's amazed at how much longer cars last here than her home, because of all the salt corrosion they get. On a somewhat related note, I actually observed rust to be a much bigger issue where I grew up in the southeast. All our tools out in the garage would rust out in a matter of no time, whereas all my tools here hold up fine with little care on my part. I think the humidity was the culprit there.

Humidity combined with sun. Fountain hills doesn't have humidity, but I'must guessing the combination of water, and sun in that micro climate is a killer. I remember the cars lasting for ever in Seattle.

Over the last thirty years, since talk radio and tabloid press, we seem to want to believe things that are just crazy, and easily explained. Alex Jones, a radio guy in Texas believes aliens mess in our politics. The governor thought there were Chinese soldiers in tunnels under Walmarts. And of course, the city of Fountain Hills is putting chemicals in the pond that will melt your shoes.

There's a town in West Texas where they directly reclaim black water and drink it after purification. That one is true.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Thus putting the "mess" in "Don't mess with Texas"?

 

[markmcc]

There are plenty of courses around oceans, and saltwater is pretty corrosive in its own right. Im not a metals guy, but I know we have more than a few on these forums...anyone out there care to chime in on disc golf baskets chain quality and galvinization?

Im sure the cheaper baskets out there would go to pot pretty quickly in such circumstances,but I also assume the higher quality baskets resist corrosion better?

For corrosion resistance hot-dipped galvanization and/or stainless steel are the gold standard.

I looked at the technical specifications for the DISCatcher Pro 28 and they spec everything as either being hot-dipped galvanized (Chain, Tray, Pole, Collar, Installation Tube) or stainless (Chain Rack).

MVP's Black Hole specs stainless steel chains, with hot-dipped cage, pole and base.

I'd say that either of these approaches is good.

With cheaper (and portable) baskets you may find electroplated components, which means that they are plated with a thin layer of zinc. While technically still "galvanized" this is not a thick a layer as you get with hot-dipped. But I have seen plated chains advertised as galvanized, so buyer beware. Folks that are hot-dipping will generally use that specific term.

If you are looking at a basket hot-dipped tends to look dull gray and often a little rough. Zinc plating tends be smooth and shiny. In terms of corrosion resistance hot-dipped offers a much thicker zinc coating as well as some alloying that comes from the process itself that makes it a superior protection system. But it comes at a greater cost...

 

[lyleoross]

Really? 500k is a ton of money outside of paradise valley. Never thought of fountain hills as that affluent.

That's what their city propaganda said. I have no idea. Maybe it was 50,000 and there was a typo?

 

[araytx]

Somehow this thread has gotten really far from the discussion of the different models of bskets and their "catching ability," to something about environmental effects. While those issues may be tangentially related, I'm gonna chime in back to the point of the OP.

If you listen to the other link given here, JK talks more about basket structure. He's thinking about how the basket catches and how it relates to the disc. I would argue that discussion is key and important. He actually argues for easier putting, and Uli chimes in with green structure and the comment is on risk reward. I agree. There should be a risk reward process. That is definitely a green design issue.

I will disagree on the spit out issue they raise. Look, a spit out from a bad basket is tough. But a spit out from a good basket isn't the basket, it's the player. Again, depends on spit out. We need to be more accepting of the notion that a player can over throw a basket. Going to be an interesting long term discussion. Definitely a great topic.

I agree that a spit is a spit, but I'm concerned with different baskets by different manufacturers having a different "spit factor" (if I may), that is, on one championship level basket hitting a putt low left edge-of-pole spits through and on another basket it catches, and so on and so on.

Let me offer two solutions for the people who want to remove the advantage of "die it in the hole" subtlety in putting.

The first option would be to replace your basket's chains with a larger version of this:

That should give you the radial symmetry some are asking for, and get rid of the dreaded cut-through putts (that's a worse problem to me than bounce-outs), though smashing putts might still bounce out if you hit the chains too hard. You could also soften the pole with a wrapping of synthetic goose down, and coat the chains in a sticky surface like the NFL receivers have on their gloves. How much do you want to spend?

The second option should be a tone pole, but I'd like to add a hockey goal style light that flashes when the pole takes a hit.

Nope. That type of symmetrical "chains" would move as a unit, and not have individual give; so I'd speculate that the soft putts, even if dead center, might get punished. we won't know until someone does a trial experiment.

Here I will challenge Chuck, on behalf of Curmudgeon, lets say. As an academic scientist, I saw, perhaps six scientists destroy their careers based on gut instinct. George Bush sent us to war in Iraq, based on gut instinct. Millions of people don't and do support global warming based on gut instinct. Chuck's notion that baskets give fluky outcomes is based on... gut instinct. Now I like and respect Chuck. But heck, you can't even tell what percentage of putts are impacted by fluke even if you know it happens. Yes, I know, it seems logical to Chuck, based on his experience. He's wrong. He can argue till the planet dies, but as I wrote above, I know plenty who've looked at things and based on very logical arguments made in a vacuum, were dead wrong.

Running with the theme that there are fluky outcomes, they have no import [sic?]. Players don't whine because of fluky outcomes, they whine because they didn't get what they wanted. If you made the perfect God anointed basket, that every shot that should go in, did. And every shot that shouldn't, didn't, guess what. Whining galore. And of course, as long as there's fluke, there's something I can blame it on.

Until the voices with weight stop the fluky excuse, it will be the norm. Until those voices grow up and realize it isn't important, players will be blaming every disc in the grass as a fluke.

BTW - the notion of controlling flukiness is my new guide to life. I'm setting up a company, fraudulent of course, called Fluky Be Gone. We aim to eliminate the fluke that's been holding you back.

Response here from a person with nearly 40 years in the game.
An observation: I was watching the Valspar Golf Tournament on cable, and NO ONE complained about the holes there, especially not the top pros.

The regular golf world did an experiment with their holes at one point in their history. The upped the hole's diameter from 4.25" to 6.25" and do you know what they learned? Good putters made more putts.

Mach I baskets catch perfectly well. There was a SoCal player named Randy Amann whose putting style was a fore-runner of today's push-putt. When I saw him play, he was nearly automatic from 40' and he used old hard white 'DX' 86 molds. Having watched Randy play several times, I've no doubt he had the skill to putt in another way, but he developed that putt so the target would consistently catch it. This is the same thinking that led Ken Climo to develop his unique putting style. Both of these players can rightly be termed 'shot-makers' - they take responsibility for their own games, regardless of results.

What these facts mean is that it is an expression of supreme weakness to blame your equipment for your results - even if it's true, even if that expression helps shield one's fragile ego. You are an adult. You are responsible. You can adapt. Learning the correct approach to the situation, in this case, how to putt well on this tournament's baskets, is your responsibility. This game is not 'imbalanced' or 'unfair'.

I played a little match this weekend and twice members of my group said that my missed putts were 'spit-outs'. I immediately corrected them, with 'No, I missed the putt.' It didn't matter if that putt was the absolute best I could muster at that particular time. I missed it - this is case, with nearly EVERY 'called' spit-out that I have ever seen, which is probably more than most people have ever played. The point is that there is a big difference between being genuinely disappointed that you missed some shot and failing to take responsibility for your miss.

That being said, there is a lot of validity to the argument that that highest tour levels should require a certain level of consistency for targets (read: all 'identical' targets), especially if the aim is more overall involvement and attracting larger sponsors. The trade-off for enacting such a change would be the alienation of many manufacturers in the disc world, something the governing body would be hesitant at least to do...

Again, flukiness is not the right term; it's randomness. And the disc golf world has rallied against randomness before. The proverbial 2-meter rule is today among the few and far between, whereas when I began playing 10 years ago it was commonplace. And the reasoning was the randomness of the way it was being applied in most cases relative to the course. Players didn't say "people are whining from not getting what they like; they need to just grow up." No, they didn't; players argued that the way the two-meter rule was being applied in most cases was too random, in that often similarly thrown discs would end up with different results, specifically one of the throws having to accept a penalty throw added to their score. It wasn't, "When you get stuck over 2 meters you just threw a bad shot, and those guys who didn't get stuck threw a good shot." The arguments against the 2-meter rule were nowhere close to that. SO I QUESTION people applying the exact same principle here in a THE OPPOSITE way. Have some consistency, people.

I don't buy that. There are things that are different than "back in the day." Players travel week-to-week all over the country, there many more disc manufacturers and each manufacturer has multiple baskets approved at the championship level. And, Lyle, my friend, has made many valid assertions based upon fact and backed them up. But the one about players will still whine with the perfect basket -- sorry, that's conjecture. When one hears currently different players complaining a lot now, I can see assuming they'll complain no matter what. But I equate it to soccer and basketball because they don't say that the goal is unfair or random.

 

[lyleoross]

Somehow this thread has gotten really far from the discussion of the different models of bskets and their "catching ability," to something about environmental effects. While those issues may be tangentially related, I'm gonna chime in back to the point of the OP.



I agree that a spit is a spit, but I'm concerned with different baskets by different manufacturers having a different "spit factor" (if I may), that is, on one championship level basket hitting a putt low left edge-of-pole spits through and on another basket it catches, and so on and so on.





Nope. That type of symmetrical "chains" would move as a unit, and not have individual give; so I'd speculate that the soft putts, even if dead center, might get punished. we won't know until someone does a trial experiment.





Again, flukiness is not the right term; it's randomness. And the disc golf world has rallied against randomness before. The proverbial 2-meter rule is today among the few and far between, whereas when I began playing 10 years ago it was commonplace. And the reasoning was the randomness of the way it was being applied in most cases relative to the course. Players didn't say "people are whining from not getting what they like; they need to just grow up." No, they didn't; players argued that the way the two-meter rule was being applied in most cases was too random, in that often similarly thrown discs would end up with different results, specifically one of the throws having to accept a penalty throw added to their score. It wasn't, "When you get stuck over 2 meters you just threw a bad shot, and those guys who didn't get stuck threw a good shot." The arguments against the 2-meter rule were nowhere close to that. SO I QUESTION people applying the exact same principle here in a THE OPPOSITE way. Have some consistency, people.

I don't buy that. There are things that are different than "back in the day." Players travel week-to-week all over the country, there many more disc manufacturers and each manufacturer has multiple baskets approved at the championship level. And, Lyle, my friend, has made many valid assertions based upon fact and backed them up. But the one about players will still whine with the perfect basket -- sorry, that's conjecture. When one hears currently different players complaining a lot now, I can see assuming they'll complain no matter what. But I equate it to soccer and basketball because they don't say that the goal is unfair or random.

You use this word conjecture. I don't think you know what it means. Inego "The Princes Bride."

Having played for twenty years, get how I one-upped you, if there's one universal axiom, it's that players whine. And they whine when they don't get the outcome they want. One only has to watch, oh let's see, any player miss a putt and do the angry disc slap on the thigh, or the two foot toddler stomp on the ground or the, throw the hands up in the air and look to the heavens, or the, "that basket -insert four letter expletive-" verbal tribute etc. to realize that it's not conjecture. Of course maybe every time the disc doesn't stay in the basket it's because of randomness and all of the above are justified? In that case, are all those actions attempted worshipful gestures to the Greek goddess of random outcomes?

Central thesis, you can't by any real means, distinguish between a "real" spit out, caused by lack of player skill, or one caused by the Greek goddess of random outcomes. How would you even define that? You can test basket configurations for desired outcomes, but you wouldn't really know what caused them. I think I'll stand my ground on this one.

Oh wait, maybe someone coats the baskets with toxic chemicals that the discs are allergic to, and that causes the spit outs?

 

[SD86]

On a somewhat related note, I actually observed rust to be a much bigger issue where I grew up in the southeast. All our tools out in the garage would rust out in a matter of no time, whereas all my tools here hold up fine with little care on my part. I think the humidity was the culprit there.

True. Down here in the South, humidity can be a killer. On a tangential side note, we have a lot of stainless steel lever action rifles for deer hunting, and that's because of the humidity (and have to keep the barrels clean and oiled, as well).

 

[JedV]

True. Down here in the South, humidity can be a killer. On a tangential side note, we have a lot of stainless steel lever action rifles for deer hunting, and that's because of the humidity (and have to keep the barrels clean and oiled, as well).

Cleaning and oiling is feasible on a gun... Hilarious notion for a basket

 

[cjman]

You are not allowed to go in the water to retrieve your disc. In the past, some players who did so had their shoes rot or fall apart.

This guy.

Can't trust a thing he types.

 

[DanJon]

I remember Ginnelly telling a story about how they drained the "lake" at Fountain Hills years ago.

Apparently they found a ton of discs and many of them were melted/fused together.

I would never step foot in there.

 

[SD86]

Cleaning and oiling is feasible on a gun... Hilarious notion for a basket

Totally agree. I was just support to what someone said about the humidity, with that example.

Then again, maybe oil the chains on those holes some people want to make Par 2? Make it a little tougher. *ducking*

 

[azwelke]

I remember Ginnelly telling a story about how they drained the "lake" at Fountain Hills years ago.

Apparently they found a ton of discs and many of them were melted/fused together.

I would never step foot in there.

Me neither.
The water is glowing green with duck poop, fertilizers, and pesticides, mixed with a little water so they can pump it with trash pumps 300' plus in the air.
What is also funny, is that people walk in that stuff and stand in the mist when the wind is blowing.

 

[ohtobediscing]

^^^I wonder if its possible to have less than zero interest in playing a course... :gross:

Disc golf's own personal Love Canal...

 

[SonicGuy]

^^^I wonder if its possible to have less than zero interest in playing a course... :gross:

Disc golf's own personal Love Canal...

You should play it once because it is an iconic course in the history of disc golf. But then never go back.

 

[ejvogie]

I'd try to run through it in between fountain bursts.

#probablywouldn'tmatter

 

[BrotherDave]

If we adopt a basket that doesn't accept soft putts would that help increase 2 and 3-putting since come backs would be longer from harder thrown errant putts? And layups would be increased due to come backs being more likely to land in OB areas?

 

[TheOtherBill]

A classic Mach cut-thru at the 4:50 mark. Dickerson hits the reflective tape on the pole and it slides past the innner set of chains and out the back.

Nothing wrong with this putt. Dollar's commentary afterward includes his preference for Discatchers, which this course has on the back 9 instead of more Mach III's.

 

[Halcón]

^ Looks like it missed the pole and hit weak side. So that's not a clean putt. Having said that, it still would likely fall in the basket on a better catching target.

 

[TheOtherBill]

^ Looks like it missed the pole and hit weak side. So that's not a clean putt. Having said that, it still would likely fall in the basket on a better catching target.

It was left side but did hit the pole high on the tape, only the inner chains moved.