Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Sheep]

I know I'm a few pages late, but that "guess the nose angle" video was great. Thank you so much for putting that together! I still need to spend some more time with pencils and trying out Rathbun's grip. That much nose down off a grip alone is pretty wild.

I'm about 9 months into owning a tech disc. A modest amount of turn the key, some inverted swoop, and sometimes a bonopane grip (I've got the middle finger calluses to handle this one now), and I can usually control my nose angle pretty well. I've always enjoyed playing in the woods, but manipulating River flight paths with nose angles is an extra layer of fun. Yea, timing the key turning can be touchy at first, but honestly so much of disc golf swing is controlling timing...

It's all about the grip, not about flipping your wrist around. =)

 

[Sheep]

I'm really genuinely curious about this. Am I weird and alone in my perception that there is almost no "timing" in the swing?

To me it feels almost impossible to do anything out of order if you have a fairly powerful swing. The swing is one big action to me, not a series of events that I time.

once your body gets used to certian things, it want to do them in time.

So thats "your" timing.
Thats why its difficult to get some changes into a swing if they are really bad.

 

[timothy42b]

I'm really genuinely curious about this. Am I weird and alone in my perception that there is almost no "timing" in the swing?

To me it feels almost impossible to do anything out of order if you have a fairly powerful swing. The swing is one big action to me, not a series of events that I time.

It seems reasonable to me that inertial forces will force the components to move in alignment and timing - things like the arm angle opening up, disc pivoting if it does, etc. And with a very light object, inertial forces are very low until acceleration gets pretty high. Think about throwing a ping pong ball hard. In a ball golf swing, inertial forces from the center of mass of the club head will pull the shaft into release, and if you swing hard enough there's no way you can resist that.

That suggests this may not work for players below a certain threshhold of speed. And a slow motion throw is going to have different mechanics unless you are quite skilled at controlling them.

I think this applies even more to the forehand. At slow speeds when learning, you have to snap the wrist. At Ryan Sheldon's speed, his wrist can be a pin joint (engineering term for connection that pivots freely) and the disc will snap out on its own.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It's all about the grip, not about flipping your wrist around. =)

It's both, but tell me the most nose up grip and I will throw nose down with it by turning the key and vice versa. Assuming the grip is something you can even throw with instead of being some super crazy thing.

 

[Sewer bill]

It's both, but tell me the most nose up grip and I will throw nose down with it by turning the key and vice versa. Assuming the grip is something you can even throw with instead of being some super crazy thing.

Do some throws with your thumb off the flight plate.

 

[itlnstln]

I'm really genuinely curious about this. Am I weird and alone in my perception that there is almost no "timing" in the swing?

To me it feels almost impossible to do anything out of order if you have a fairly powerful swing. The swing is one big action to me, not a series of events that I time.

medium rare take coming through:

I think this is correct; "timing" is shorthand for technique deficiencies that manifest as aspects of the throw performed out of sync.

If I throw a ball, there's no "timing" to speak of; it's my body working as a unit to propel the object efficiently.

The backhand disc throw is not as "obvious" to the body, so we don't have the same innate feel that we have when throwing a ball, rock, etc. I think it would be more accurate to say that we haven't internalized the throwing motion to the point where it's as natural as other throwing motions we may use.

For example, if someone is starting their swing before their plant foot lands, that's not a "timing" problem, it's internalizing the role the front foot brace plays in the throw and converting that to muscle memory. It's a little easier to just call that "timing."

Another example is early and late release. This is usually caused by something like rounding. It's not a timing problem, it's a deficiency in the technique that's creating an observed timing problem when in reality if the thrower didn't round, the shot would have been basically on-line

 

[Sewer bill]

Timing is fun to manipulate once you have both sides in muscle memory.

There's the conservative aim with the body tighten up the footwork intentionally slip the plant foot gap hitting laser beam repeatable shot shape timing.

Then there's the stretch it out delay longer plant harder and dig spray and pray that adds several mph and hundreds of rpm timing. Perfect for wide open shenanigans.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Do some throws with your thumb off the flight plate.

Out for ~half a week but will try after.

How about this? The thumb part of the palm does touch a bit. If I try to avoid that and then jiggle between pronation / supination the disc slips until the thumb-palm (thenar) comes into contact a bit.

Basically what is most realistic if you had no thumb? You'd prob use the thumb-palm to stabilize the disc.

To fully hover the thumb and thumb-palm, I'd need to do a modified bonapane it seems--index finger on top of flight plate and thumb hovering above so the thumb-palm doesn't slide into place onto the disc.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Sewer bill what do you think the effect will be? I'll try pour the tea without turn the key and separately try turn the key.

 

[Nick Carroll]

once your body gets used to certian things, it want to do them in time.
So thats "your" timing.
Thats why its difficult to get some changes into a swing if they are really bad.

Can confirm. If you have a bad swing, swinging harder won't make it any better. I think you might actually make things worse. It's not always about accuracy. We are playing a sport where we often throw a disc as hard as we can. And as with any sport, a movement done explosively, wrongly, can cause injury.

I think in isolation a swing can have a fixed duration, but it IS important to have it's timing worked on relative to the rest of the body. If you swing too early or late, you are essentially throwing "all arm" because the swing is not in the correct sequence, so the kinetic chain is disturbed. If the swing starts at the right time, it can be properly used with the body to propel the disc faster and potentially farther.

 

[Sewer bill]

@Sewer bill what do you think the effect will be? I'll try pour the tea without turn the key and separately try turn the key.

If you grip it like in the photo and actually crank on a backhand throw I anticipate you'll hurt yourself somewhere in the elbow.

 

[Sheep]

If you grip it like in the photo and actually crank on a backhand throw I anticipate you'll hurt yourself somewhere in the elbow.

You can actually throw like that. I tried that grip for a while.

You have to throw at your belt buckle for it to work though. If you get it nose down, it goes pretty far, but its really hard to get it nose down.

Part of nose angle is not just only grip, but how your arm deflects based on the height to your body.

There are a lot of players who if they threw lets say belly button height would just naturally throw nose down, but they throw up above their nipples. and what not.

It's all about setting your body up for success, which is the part that's not sinking in for a few people in this thread. It's not about a gimmick to magically realign your wrist at the last second. If you just set everything up correctly in the first place and stop trying to force things, you'll throw better.

Form changes get even harder as you get older though, and I'm changing some stuff right now to help get my swing lower again. When I was on a confused journey like neil here with the nose stuff thinking I knew it all. I had changed where I threw the disc at and made it higher.

I stood around all the time going "I must throw nose down, I'm throwing 400 feet."
Nope.
Form was good enough to smash nose up throws 400 feet. Generally a nose up throw dies at 300-330.

Was throwing nose up the whole time.
My injuries make it really hard to throw nose down. Body doesn't cooperate quite as easily.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

medium rare take coming through:

I think this is correct; "timing" is shorthand for technique deficiencies that manifest as aspects of the throw performed out of sync.

If I throw a ball, there's no "timing" to speak of; it's my body working as a unit to propel the object efficiently.

The backhand disc throw is not as "obvious" to the body, so we don't have the same innate feel that we have when throwing a ball, rock, etc. I think it would be more accurate to say that we haven't internalized the throwing motion to the point where it's as natural as other throwing motions we may use.

For example, if someone is starting their swing before their plant foot lands, that's not a "timing" problem, it's internalizing the role the front foot brace plays in the throw and converting that to muscle memory. It's a little easier to just call that "timing."

Another example is early and late release. This is usually caused by something like rounding. It's not a timing problem, it's a deficiency in the technique that's creating an observed timing problem when in reality if the thrower didn't round, the shot would have been basically on-line

I dunno that i agree totally. Throwing a ball overhand is not actually all that natural, it's just something we've practiced from a young age. The 'timing' in the kinetic chain feels automatic, but it definitely isn't. Throwing with the off hand is a good indicator of that - most people will immediately throw with hips and arm all at the same time, no lag, no kinetic chain.

An athlete, who is used to the way you can generate speed through a chain of levers (whether from kicking a football, throwing a ball, whatever) will likely find the timing in a backhand relatively easy. They at least intuitively understand that you don't always need more effort to get more speed. But someone with no sports background at all may well have to consciously delay certain things until they can feel the easy power.

I think you're right that early release etc is not a timing issue, but rather a consequence of something going wrong elsewhere. But i think for a lot of people that starting the throw before they plant really is a timing issue.

 

[Sheep]

medium rare take coming through:

I think this is correct; "timing" is shorthand for technique deficiencies that manifest as aspects of the throw performed out of sync.

If I throw a ball, there's no "timing" to speak of; it's my body working as a unit to propel the object efficiently.

The backhand disc throw is not as "obvious" to the body, so we don't have the same innate feel that we have when throwing a ball, rock, etc. I think it would be more accurate to say that we haven't internalized the throwing motion to the point where it's as natural as other throwing motions we may use.

For example, if someone is starting their swing before their plant foot lands, that's not a "timing" problem, it's internalizing the role the front foot brace plays in the throw and converting that to muscle memory. It's a little easier to just call that "timing."

Another example is early and late release. This is usually caused by something like rounding. It's not a timing problem, it's a deficiency in the technique that's creating an observed timing problem when in reality if the thrower didn't round, the shot would have been basically on-line

I agree with technique on point 2, but not point 1.

Sequence of events is timing. Technique to perform is part of timing but separate.

Your brace is a sequence in the events. While throwing late in the throw is a technique issue, because you're not setting your body up properly to throw on the target line. I made a video about grip lock because of this. People say "grip lock" no... You set yourself up to throw that direction, its not grip lock. Bad technique.

Good point though, we probably overuse timing a bit to much.
It's important, but tied with technique as well.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

When I was on a confused journey like neil here with the nose stuff thinking I knew it all.

How do you square this with the fact that I can control the nose angle in relatively fine grain increments in either direction? Do you think I'm cognitively confused but have somehow developed the intuitive feel to do it despite that?

All the practice that went into learning this was driven from deliberate planning, analysis, experimentation, and then factoring the resulting data back into the process to make adjustments.

 

[Kennets]

How old are you Neil? Im assuming in your thirties/late twenties (since we played competitive WoW around the same time ish), you must do something right, to pick up on stuff that fast. It seems like i lost that part of my brain somewhere in my twenties lol.

Anyway, I don't get either of you lads obsession with this nose angle stuff - there's different cues for people out there and those who coach or wanna coach should be able to teach in a way that makes sense for the student/reader.

It seems like a case of "my way works, F yours" and you guys litteraly going in circles in this debate.

 

[itlnstln]

I agree with technique on point 2, but not point 1.

Sequence of events is timing. Technique to perform is part of timing but separate.

Your brace is a sequence in the events. While throwing late in the throw is a technique issue, because you're not setting your body up properly to throw on the target line. I made a video about grip lock because of this. People say "grip lock" no... You set yourself up to throw that direction, its not grip lock. Bad technique.

Good point though, we probably overuse timing a bit to much.
It's important, but tied with technique as well.

The problem that I have with applying "sequence" and "timing" to an athletic movement is that is can (unintentionally, even) suggest that these are discrete steps or movements that are separate from one another. The run up should flow into the brace while the body coils, the brace provides a strong foundation for the upper body to uncoil to and swing the arm through. They have to be performed as a single unit. If you're thinking about timing these events then you're not performing the throw as a single athletic motion.

Now... I know that's not intuitive to everyone, so coaches such as yourself need to work with less-than-athletic folks that don't have that intuition, so we need frameworks to present information through. My thoughts here are an observation of how we talk about things vs. the actual biomechanics

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The problem that I have with applying "sequence" and "timing" to an athletic movement is that is can (unintentionally, even) suggest that these are discrete steps or movements that are separate from one another. The run up should flow into the brace while the body coils, the brace provides a strong foundation for the upper body to uncoil to and swing the arm through. They have to be performed as a single unit. If you're thinking about timing these events then you're not performing the throw as a single athletic motion.

Now... I know that's not intuitive to everyone, so coaches such as yourself need to work with less-than-athletic folks that don't have that intuition, so we need frameworks to present information through. My thoughts here are an observation of how we talk about things vs. the actual biomechanics

A lot of people have to learn to practice manually combining discrete steps first before they can learn to perform things as a fluid sequence because they don't have the requisite muscle memory to jump straight to the one fluid motion. I've focused on this approach in multiple sports and it's helped me quickly build up to a complex 'one fluid motion'. What even is the alternative? Trying to just do everything as a single unit right away without even being able to perform simpler motions in isolation?

 

[itlnstln]

A lot of people have to learn to practice manually combining discrete steps first before they can learn to perform things as a fluid sequence because they don't have the requisite muscle memory to jump straight to the one fluid motion. I've focused on this approach in multiple sports and it's helped me quickly build up to a complex 'one fluid motion'. What even is the alternative? Trying to just do everything as a single unit right away without even being able to perform simpler motions in isolation?

I think it's the focus on too discrete a step. If you start with a standstill, for instance, that's a group of motions that need to be understood together for the throw to work. From there, you can step and brace, and so on.

Let's take coiling, for example. There's a ton of (good) videos on coiling. In isolation, practicing coiling might not help much if you can't then tie it to the uncoil and throw. There's a movement there that needs to be done as a cohesive unit for the parts to work and make sense. What might be better (or at least different) in this example is starting from a coiled position in a stand still (or even one-step) throw and getting a basic throw locked in, then adding the next movement group to the throw, say, a run-up. As you add these groups, then there's potentially some work to tie those groups together. It could be easier, then, when I have developed strong muscle memory of a standstill and add the run-up/brace/coil group

To be clear, I'm just musing here, and different students are different, and so coaching styles need to be different

 

[disc-golf-neil]

How old are you Neil? Im assuming in your thirties/late twenties (since we played competitive WoW around the same time ish), you must do something right, to pick up on stuff that fast. It seems like i lost that part of my brain somewhere in my twenties lol.

Anyway, I don't get either of you lads obsession with this nose angle stuff - there's different cues for people out there and those who coach or wanna coach should be able to teach in a way that makes sense for the student/reader.

It seems like a case of "my way works, F yours" and you guys litteraly going in circles in this debate.

Almost 36.

I think a lot of it is approach and process oriented / driven which keeps you exercising that part of the brain so it doesn't atrophy. When I'm interested enough a sport / game it's the same approach and repeatedly results in fast improvement for me.

I sample many techniques (from what I see, hear, or think up) and experiment with them a ton initially for a much longer period of time than most people do (many people tunnel vision on the first things that give decent results, I mentally note them and continue testing and come back) and this builds up a vast library of experience (feeling of mechanics / techniques and their outcomes) which eventually start coming together to form a richer larger-scale intuition and feel for how the mechanics work and are connected. At least that's how it feels.

There's of course still a lot I have to learn and to improve in my form but I definitely got a great head start.

I believe I could've turned my brain off, only watched a few form vids and pro tournaments, and then just played the same amount and learned quickly (just moderately less quickly) but I'd probably have ended up with bigger bad habits with form that became more deeply ingrained.