Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Brychanus]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

Thank you for taking the time to do this and to write and report it, Chris!

I bolded a part near the end that I found to be a fair takeaway, FWIW.

Edit: After updating my own priors with this, one part I found interesting was the consistency in internal rotation into the PP across players, which is what I had thought to be "preferred" (so I'm glad for that!).

I suppose I still have questions within-player between-shots, but I was especially curious about the (1) total net hand rotation and (2) PP-to-release variation.

For (1), I was slightly surprised by Ricky's (but less in hindsight), and not surprised by GG's (just because I tend to think of GG as relying on several highly rotational mechanics in general). The pronating+externally rotating combination in the other two with noticeably less net hand rotation makes me more curious, if anything, about the pressure interactions through the hand (which is mostly just my curiosity in minutiae).

I am really now just more curious how much of this is just a "fit to anatomy" or a difference in style that, if adopted by the other players, could be more effective than the other.

The lack of any obvious PP-to-release pronating + further internal rotation is interesting, and IMHO part of what has been a confusion in parts of the discussion in this thread.

For both (1) and (2), I'm still curious how consistently a shoulder/arm tends to rotate in one and only one direction into the PP and then out of it.

 

[itlnstln]

Strategic (intentional) learning is a more complex topic, and comes with both more upside but also more downside in adults, which are more likely to get stuck in learning ruts when their analytic assumptions are false but they persist without changing strategies, which is often (not always) hard to determine without experimenter (i.e., not the learner) manipulation.

Quoted for emphasis. Guilty of this myself, to be sure.

My wife has been having putting struggles and wouldn't change aspects of her form *even though* she would see herself on video and comprehend it was inefficient and not working for her. Her thought was that her form was modeled after other FPO players, so the form was fine and her failure was in her execution. She wanted to learn a spin putt, so she started putting more similarly to Matty O., and had a ton more success. She said something to the effect of, "I should have tried changing strategies a long time ago."

The main learnings I had here are 1) don't be afraid to scrap things that don't work and try new things and 2) have a trusted coach/external observer that will tell you when shit is broke, and 3) LISTEN. TO. THAT. PERSON.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Would you think, that you would have to force the pronation through the throw, to let it stay pronated?

That's what I was saying. If you start fully pronated (full briefcase) and you keep the disc fully pronated and you throw a normal launch angle, the disc does not easily come out of your hand when throwing like this. So you have to forcefully flick the wrist to get it to rotate out of your hand or manually release the disc. You have to do something unusual is the point.

I think people's pushback regarding your.. thoughts? Are justified.

Most of the push back is repeatedly bringing up things I don't disagree and painting me as if I do disagree. I agree simpler form should be taught and learned first and fundamental form issues prioritized. I agree that turn the key can put more strain but with conditioning I don't think it's a big risk. I agree there's a risk of too much external shoulder rotation.

that needs to be timed in a span of what? 0.1 seconds? Sounds like something no one would benefit from. Newbie, intermediate or pro.

If no one would benefit from it then why do many pros do it?

This part addresses the valid pushback of unnecessary additional complexity:

At a certain point in the development of one's form, once they have solid fundamentals, that is when turn the key could be useful based on personal preference, but to find out if it's liked at this point it would require some actual dedicated practice to see how it feels once you are used to it. For some people, once used to turn the key, it could feel smoother to briefcase and then turn the key because comparatively, trying to maintain the disc's orientation to be the same throughout the whole throw can feel overly restrictive. It also happens that the mechanic can provider a bigger range of nose down options too, which is another thing that can be useful after you have the fundamentals down.

I think we see a similar pattern develop for some pro's forehands, you see more complex swings where the disc is further from the intended plane during the backswing for some people but other pros keep it much more on plane the whole time.


A lot of people who successfully learn or are taught to get their nose down finally by fixing their grip and other things are probably rarely getting the nose negative and instead are going from double digits nose up to 3-5 nose up, which is a big success and very manageable nose angle which you can still throw far with. If all you are doing is watching it fly it's not easy to see if it's +3 or -3.


The reason I turn the key is because I've found out the grip alignment I use, which is commonly recognized as a well-aligned grip, in addition to pour the tea, still results in slight nose up. I have many options to change things to get the nose down, like changing my grip, or inverted swoop swing plane, but turn the key, only after I got used to it, feels great (smooth, not jerky) and allows me to use my more comfortable grip and more comfortable swing plane and still have multiple options for more or less nose down. It also makes internal shoulder rotation feel more comfortable before and into the pocket.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Strategic (intentional) learning is a more complex topic, and comes with both more upside but also more downside in adults, which are more likely to get stuck in learning ruts when their analytic assumptions are false but they persist without changing strategies, which is often (not always) hard to determine without experimenter (i.e., not the learner) manipulation.

Very cool.

Maybe this is why I've developed the habit to do a large sampling of different techniques, even when things are working, and continually test / experiment. Since I tend towards the more strategic and analytical, this habit could've developed as a way to helps avoid and escape ruts.

It feels early on like I'm slowing my progress since I usually quickly find something that produces good results, but there's some intuition that I should keep trying other stuff too, knowing I can always come back to what was working if it still seems worth it after trying other stuff.

 

[Kennets]

"why do so many pros do it?"

I know my grammar and English can be tough at times, but you aren't reading my stuff dude. I just said that i think it's more of a passive move. No one's is arguing about supination not being a thing, it's more the passive/active part of it.

I have to call it quits on this thread.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"why do so many pros do it?"

I know my grammar and English can be tough at times, but you aren't reading my stuff dude. I just said that i think it's more of a passive move. No one's is arguing about supination not being a thing, it's more the passive/active part of it.

I have to call it quits on this thread.

Yeah I missed your distinction between active / passive. I think a lot of pros have developed it passively because they've played since they were kids and have had a long time to evolve naturally. But if you aren't already doing it passively and want to test it out, you can't just make it passively happen so it would require doing it actively for a while to build up the muscle memory for it to then become passive.

 

[Brychanus]

Very cool.

Maybe this is why I've developed the habit to do a large sampling of different techniques, even when things are working, and continually test / experiment. Since I tend towards the more strategic and analytical, this habit could've developed as a way to helps avoid and escape ruts.

It feels early on like I'm slowing my progress since I usually quickly find something that produces good results, but there's some intuition that I should keep trying other stuff too, knowing I can always come back to what was working if it still seems worth it after trying other stuff.

Earlier you mentioned the large sampling space, which can be valuable. I don't think it is as well-studied in general whether fluency in multiple skills in a new space benefits from more fluency earlier in life in other spaces, but my guess is "probably." In other words, I am not surprised if a well-rounded athlete can try and then drop things more quickly early on. There's probably some learning risk there in terms of exploring too much too early, but another benefit is not becoming too trenchant too early. Those athletes also do probably have some neurocognitive and physical advantages to begin with if they are that active in sports early on, too (whether I like it or not, those appear to be real things even if there are important details to consider).

One strategic change I made recently was to put the video recordings down for a while once we landed on something that was trending toward looking reasonably good on me (holistically!): I committed to get outside and work on my throwing intentions and overall motoin, and supplemented my habits with things like fitness, mental game, rest intervals, fun factor, etc. That strategy has worked well recently but I expect I will need to change strategies again sometime soon for the sake of new progress.

Since I started with nearly zero relevant "athletic reservoir" to pull from, I do still think that the countless drilling reps, experiments with alternatives, etc. are "making up for lost time" and the ceiling is likely somewhat lower for me than someone with those advantages, time will tell I suppose.

Also, #neverskiplegmobilityflexibilitycoreday

 

[itlnstln]

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

Every time I see this video, I have 3 thoughts:

1) Robbie Bratton was fun to watch when I would play in tourneys in Texas (many) years ago. I wonder what happened to that guy
2) I wish MJ would show up on post-production coverage more
3) My fingers are woefully short

 

[RowingBoats]

Clearly you meant "gee darn frak," which need not be censored

Some combination of analytic insight, personality, projection, and the usual high-quality DGCR BS you uniquely encounter here.

How's your Monday?

I'm always good bro. And I agree, I don't hate the thread lol, but its...quite a thread rofl.

Monday is going well, just got back from vaca with the fam Couldn't bring my bag so I took a Glitch to play a couple rounds!

 

[RowingBoats]

Every time I see this video, I have 3 thoughts:

1) Robbie Bratton was fun to watch when I would play in tourneys in Texas (many) years ago. I wonder what happened to that guy
2) I wish MJ would show up on post-production coverage more
3) My fingers are woefully short

Lol man, I'm with ya. I'm only 5'8 and have what seem like small hands even FOR my overall size.

I really wanna know what its like to be like...Gannon/AB with those levers/hands. I think it must be a huge advantage.

 

[isamoor]

This is already a very micro thread so I will add to its micro-ness -

Please keep in mind the center of rotation when supinating or pronating. If you put a pencil in your hand between your thumb/index, generally aligned with a disc grip, and then rotate your forearm, in order for the center of rotation to be at the point of the pencil, you need to increase ulnar deviation in order to align the pencil tip to forearm rotation.

"IF" your intention is "turning the key" the focus of the rotation should be at the point of the key (disc) which is at the pressure between thumb/index not up in the wrist. No matter how you get there, the nose angle delivered to the disc is the orientation of your thumb/index at the instant of release.

I finally had some time at the same time my wife was free (she has the kinesiology background to help understand your suggestions). It still isn't super clear how to align the pencil when pinching it, but I understand the intent that after the pencil is in place, you want to adjust your arm until you are rotating the nose angle while the pencil "holds still". This helped me feel the desired orientation of arm and hand.

After fidgeting around for 20 minutes with the tech disc I wasn't exactly able to get it nose down perse. But I got it nose neutral with a four finger power grip. And that's by far the best I've ever been able to do with a four finger power grip. I think if I spend more time iterating from there I might be able to get it at least 1-2 deg nose down consistently. It was super nice seeing very high spin rates without focusing so hard on that (a little over 50% advantage ratio on most backhands). I can get nose down with a bonopane grip, but it takes a lot of focus to keep the spin rate up with that funky grip (I can usually get it to high 40s advantage ratio).

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[itlnstln]

All time classic! Never gets old. It was that video that got me over to DGR back in '06-'07

Great, great vid.