This happened in a casual round and I'm wondering how to play it out by the rules. Players disc landed on a large bush. The branches of the bush were thick enough that he couldn't take a stance behind it on the ground. He stood on the bush about 4 feet in the air to throw. Is that legal or should he have just taken relief with no penalty behind the bush?
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can a player play from on top of a bush?
- Thread starter ludds
- Start date
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
If the bush was solid enough to stand on it 4 feet in the air, it likely qualified as a solid object where he could mark behind it on the ground along the Line of Play with no penalty. However, I wouldn't have given relief completely behind the bush if he would have been able to stretch his leg under/between the branches partway toward the more solid snarl of branches near the trunk if that were possible.
There was definitely no physical way for him to even get a foot and his body behind even laying down. If the bush is sturdy enough, is he allowed to stand on it? It was still moving when he shot because even though it was sturdy, it still bent with his weight.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Probably no standing on it unless TD indicated it was a known bush that TD had declared was a playing surface. If this situation occurs during a tournament, the best thing to do would be to have player make a provisional throw from on the bush and from behind the bush and complete the hole from each lie. Then later ask TD to make a ruling if the scores from each lie were different. If they were the same, then no need to ask TD other than asking which option was appropriate in the future.
TurnedOver
Par Member
I think if it's not ok to throw from the top of a tree, then it's not ok to throw from the top of a bush.
It doesn't sound like this qualifies as the "playing surface".
It doesn't sound like this qualifies as the "playing surface".
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Agree that it doesn't sound like a playing surface but the rule allows locations to be playing surfaces if a stance can "reasonably" be taken. So it's a judgment call that can be placed upon the TD. Thus, the suggestion to throw provisionals.
seedlings
* Ace Member *
Pics or it didn't happen? 
I'm curious what bush is sturdy enough to handle throwing from AND inaccessible underneath. Seems like the sturdier ones with solid trunk/branches are less dense underneath.
I carded a 7 yesterday on a par 4 by pitching out from dense thorn bushes … that only went far enough to give me a second try pitching out. IDK if I 'could' have laid down across thorn bushes, but I wouldn't have gotten back up!
I'm curious what bush is sturdy enough to handle throwing from AND inaccessible underneath. Seems like the sturdier ones with solid trunk/branches are less dense underneath.I carded a 7 yesterday on a par 4 by pitching out from dense thorn bushes … that only went far enough to give me a second try pitching out. IDK if I 'could' have laid down across thorn bushes, but I wouldn't have gotten back up!
A basic answer would be the parallel to the answer to "how does one eat an elephant?"
seedlings
* Ace Member *
I played under those bushes as a kid. All the animals hide under them. I suspect there would be very awkward space underneath to uncomfortably play from, but only in a sanctioned round IMO. I saw Joel Freeman got a penalty by not playing behind his lie in thick thorn bushes. Card in agreement that he could have.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
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The wordage is:
I doubt there will ever be more wordage than that, because it would be impossible to delineate all the different situations.
Obviously, the rule could never say "you can't stand on a plant" because there are grassy fairways. There are tees on top of tree stumps, but usually a tree stump would not be a playing surface. A half-buried log might be a playing surface at one end but not the other, or when it's dry but not when it's wet. Where exactly does a root you can stand on become trunk you can't stand on?
The group figures it out, and if they can't, they ask the TD. Ideally, the TD would address any iffy situations in the caddy book.
Yeah it was a casual round so we weren't that worried about forcing him in. He did try but he couldn't get behind where the disc had landed in the bush without being on top of the bush. My question is more what specific rule/rules designate that he wouldn't be allowed to stand on the bush since that is where his disc was?
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I think a more 'definitive' answer is in the Q&A part of the rules. While this Q&A response was about a picnic table, it does make a comparison to a bush....
So, I read that as....if you can get under/in it, do so. If you can't then you get relief from an obstacle. (803.02)
If I was involved when it happened, I would use the two rules this way....
Could the player get a supporting point behind the marker?
- Yes. Then it should be played there.
- No. Next question....
Can the player mark the lie above the playing surface and take a stance there?
- Yes. Then relief should be taken as per 803.B. Which does allow a stance on top of the obstacle.
- No. Then the player takes relief per 803.B behind the obstacle.
So, I read that as....if you can get under/in it, do so. If you can't then you get relief from an obstacle. (803.02)
If I was involved when it happened, I would use the two rules this way....
Could the player get a supporting point behind the marker?
- Yes. Then it should be played there.
- No. Next question....
Can the player mark the lie above the playing surface and take a stance there?
- Yes. Then relief should be taken as per 803.B. Which does allow a stance on top of the obstacle.
- No. Then the player takes relief per 803.B behind the obstacle.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
803.01 "A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course."
Either get a supporting point to the ground on the lie or play as a solid obstacle.
That helps! Thanks for the discussion everyone! I think it would be much less confusing if there were a more detailed definition section in the rules somewhere as some of the rules are pretty wide open to interpretation from how they are written which can make it hard to use a rule correctly.
So actually another question! Nothing here seems to say you CANT play on an obstacle. What am I missing?
The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.
The lie for the first throw on a hole is the teeing area.
A drop zone is a lie. A drop zone is an area on the course, as designated by the Director, from which a throw is made under certain conditions. A drop zone may either be marked and played in the same manner as a teeing area, or in the same manner as a marked lie. A teeing area may be used as a drop zone.
In all other cases, the lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc. The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc. The marker disc, or marker, is the disc used to mark the lie according to 802.06.
The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.
The lie for the first throw on a hole is the teeing area.
A drop zone is a lie. A drop zone is an area on the course, as designated by the Director, from which a throw is made under certain conditions. A drop zone may either be marked and played in the same manner as a teeing area, or in the same manner as a marked lie. A teeing area may be used as a drop zone.
In all other cases, the lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc. The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc. The marker disc, or marker, is the disc used to mark the lie according to 802.06.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
It doesn't say you CAN'T, because you CAN take your stance on an obstacle. It's just not the immediate option available by the rules.
Review 803.02.B. I quoted it above, but here it is again....
1. does the obstacle physically prevent you from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc?
No - play it there
Yes....then
2. Does the obstacle physically prevent you from taking a legal stance above or below the playing surface?
No -play it above or below the obstacle
Yes....then
mark a new lie on the line of play immediately behind that obstacle
Review 803.02.B. I quoted it above, but here it is again....
Let's take the rule in order of precedence...
1. does the obstacle physically prevent you from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc?
No - play it there
Yes....then
2. Does the obstacle physically prevent you from taking a legal stance above or below the playing surface?
No -play it above or below the obstacle
Yes....then
mark a new lie on the line of play immediately behind that obstacle
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
You need to then go on to the next rule about marking your lie. The marker has to be on the playing surface.
Why try to differentiate between a foot of matted prairie grass, a pile of leaves, a pile of small branches, a compacted & weathered pile of branches, a sturdy bush, a 6' diameter log, a pile of wood chips? If you can take an in-bounds stance behind the marker, within the lie, on the line of play and not damage the course then let the player decide what is "reasonable". Play it where it lies, play above, play below, casual relief, or optional relief. It's "generally" on the ground but not always and not required by rule. If TDs are aware of stacked playing surfaces they want to limit then make an event rule.
