Coiling from the core!

[Molbolz]

Hey all!

I would love to ask you a question about coiling.

How does one go about coiling from/with the core?

For the longest time i didn't coil at all but turned my hips + shoulders and everything in between, back during my reachback, making rounding inevitable.

Something clicked for me, watching Overthrow and Sling shot videos on the coil, in what i SHOULD do, but actually performing it is tricky. I have an easy time now, turning my shoulders without my hips following, so they stay closed. But the core area in between the two is tricky for me to coil along with it.

So therefore - any tips/cues/perspectives to help me along?

 

[Sheep]

The overthrow video's are pretty okay on it.

Slingshot doesn't really teach a coil, I'd say pass there if this is what you're trying to learn.

The overall ordeal is basically setting your feet up in a way that give resistance to your body turning away from the shot.

This means that foot angles and all that need to be important to allow your hips and body to rotate. Then when your weight transfer completes, it forces your body to take that stored energy and release it.

 

[timothy42b]

Does everyone coil?

I assume coil means maintain more shoulder turn than hip turn.

Look at Tiger before and after surgery. Massive difference in angle before, very little after. I suspect a large increase in power with more coil/lag but also much harder on the back - which is why he had the surgery. Shawn Clements looks to me like his lag is much less, just enough to maintain tension so you are pulling the shoulders rather than pushing.

Of course on the downswing/forwardswing, if the shoulders move before hips slide then all is lost.

Again, not claiming expertise, just thinking out loud.

 

[Dochammer]

Here are some videos that might help you feel the movement.

Loading the bow and arrow from seabass/sidewinder is a nice drill to get a feel for and play around with loading your upper body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_tQE0N9RHY

The butt wipe drill is another good one to feel how your hips should rotate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio

Brychanus/AceItDiscGolf latest videos are great for helping develop a natural feel for the movement and timings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3Nc02_c_0

 

[Brychanus]

IMO Inside Swing is perhaps the best static drill for getting the coil posture and loading from foot to disc.

Sway and rock with your body. The core should be supported over the legs and pelvis. The coil should feel natural and easy, not stressed or twisted. Some people try to torque through the core too much.

 

[Molbolz]

Thank you for all the replies - they are much appreciated

For me i think it has had a lot to do with speaking and understanding the language, focusing too much on hip/body rotation and not enough on the lateral movement.

Loading everything, moving laterally (shifting) and THEN rotating out has been huge for me the few times i managed to do it.

And yes i agree, no parts of the sequence should be overdone.

I will look into the videos !

 

[Dochammer]

Does everyone coil?

I assume coil means maintain more shoulder turn than hip turn.

Look at Tiger before and after surgery. Massive difference in angle before, very little after. I suspect a large increase in power with more coil/lag but also much harder on the back - which is why he had the surgery. Shawn Clements looks to me like his lag is much less, just enough to maintain tension so you are pulling the shoulders rather than pushing.

Of course on the downswing/forwardswing, if the shoulders move before hips slide then all is lost.

Again, not claiming expertise, just thinking out loud.

I am also not an expert and I hope someone chimes in to tell me where I am wrong or misunderstanding something, but I've been reading through some research on lower back pain in golfers (trying to answer some questions about my own back with disc golf) and found some interesting bits about trunk rotation correlating to hip rotation. One study found that healthy players who increase their trunk flexion will have higher trunk rotation and less pelvic rotation[1]. Where players with lower back pain will show less trunk flexion which leads to less trunk rotation but more pelvic rotation. The paper suggest that the added range of motion in pelvic cause more rotation out of the lumbar spine. What I understand is the lumbar can handle some rotation, but it doesn't like too and the thoracic spine is better at handling rotation.

It goes onto talk about how a golfer with lower back pain will show less muscle activation in their core muscles than a healthier golfer and how you can see signs of a weak core (and potential lower back issues) by the pelvic tilt the player has when they address the ball. The MyTPI video that talks about pelvic tilt is what lead me down this path about the pelvic and back pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU-MQnnP4Ts

This is all to say that I wonder if this relates to Tiger's surgery and his new swing, but also how well does this information relate to the backhand. My gut tells me pretty well, and it feels like a lot of the advice given here regarding posture follows from a similar point of view about the position of the pelvic and efficient/safe rotation -- as is seen in this advice from Seabass comparing a players posture to Paul's https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3787988&postcount=4.

Finally my biggest (and continued) take away whenever I read about lower back pain is that we can never do enough core and mobility exercises!

[1] Low back pain and golf: A review of biomechanical risk factors

 

[Brychanus]

I had trouble with all of this and found that learning kettlebell and other exercises swinging weights with a stable lumbar region and allowing the swing to move through the thoracic region seriously saved my lower back. I think people who play a lot of sports get this posture stability control and the baseline strength needed more easily; I definitely have needed a lot of specific focus on it.

Drew Gibson is a player who does tend to get more lumbar twist than you probably want in his swing and has sometimes mentioned back pain. There are probably ways to get a bit of power that correlate with more lumber twist but I would definitely tend to avoid them if only for health and longevity's sake. Can throw plenty far with a protected lumbar region.

 

[Waddball]

I had trouble with all of this and found that learning kettlebell and other exercises swinging weights with a stable lumbar region and allowing the swing to move through the thoracic region seriously saved my lower back. I think people who play a lot of sports get this posture stability control and the baseline strength needed more easily; I definitely have needed a lot of specific focus on it.

I've played sports most of my adult life and rarely had back pain. But I'm getting older (54) and disc golf is putting some stress on my lower back. I rotate my hips more than the "ideal form" (I'm sure it varies some by individual). I've been working on delaying my turn back, which helps, but I don't quite have the upper back flexibility I need. I like your kettlebell idea. Or maybe a 5 lb sledge, as everyone around here seems to love swinging hammers.

When I've had back issues in the past, usually just doing some core work (and maybe dropping a few pounds) did the trick. I don't really work out (disc golf is kinda sorta my workout and dog exercise routine) so need to get this sorted.

 

[Waddball]

IMO Inside Swing is perhaps the best static drill for getting the coil posture and loading from foot to disc.

Sway and rock with your body. The core should be supported over the legs and pelvis. The coil should feel natural and easy, not stressed or twisted. Some people try to torque through the core too much.

I'm not sure I remember Inside Swing, but I've made good coiling progress from the various SW Door Frame drills. I think they help a lot at both feeling that heavy "from behind" pressure right before the can crush (which I believe is the primary intent) but also feeling the whole core twist and how you can keep separation between hips and shoulders. I had a recent breakthrough using those and the Bow and Arrow linked earlier.

One thing I've recently noticed is the effect of varying your plant step stagger (ranging from inline to the really forward plant ala Simon). I feel like the more inline you are, the more you have to compensate with at least a little extra hip turn. Whereas the wide stagger sort of cheats with this, as you get the hip turn "for free" just by planting forward. But I really struggle with balance and bracing if I try that forward final step. In terms of coiling this seems like something to experiment with and find what feels easiest/most natural for you.

 

[blayed]

I'm not sure I remember Inside Swing, but I've made good coiling progress from the various SW Door Frame drills. I think they help a lot at both feeling that heavy "from behind" pressure right before the can crush (which I believe is the primary intent) but also feeling the whole core twist and how you can keep separation between hips and shoulders. I had a recent breakthrough using those and the Bow and Arrow linked earlier.

One thing I've recently noticed is the effect of varying your plant step stagger (ranging from inline to the really forward plant ala Simon). I feel like the more inline you are, the more you have to compensate with at least a little extra hip turn. Whereas the wide stagger sort of cheats with this, as you get the hip turn "for free" just by planting forward. But I really struggle with balance and bracing if I try that forward final step. In terms of coiling this seems like something to experiment with and find what feels easiest/most natural for you.

I don't think simon plants that far forward. I think it's kind of an optical illusion. They are striding with a normal stagger but at a more aggressive angle. SW22 and Overthrow both have videos talking about this.

https://youtu.be/qwy1HNMfhbk

 

[Brychanus]

Questions came up about this in recent Form Critiques and I'm aware that there are somewhat conflicting messages depending on who you're listening to out there. So as a PSA here's the thoughtful post from Navel on this topic in the Oblique Sling thread:

It distinguishes the spring coil core from a sling core. I never saw the swing the same way again:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138461

 

[Waddball]

I don't think simon plants that far forward. I think it's kind of an optical illusion. They are striding with a normal stagger but at a more aggressive angle. SW22 and Overthrow both have videos talking about this.

https://youtu.be/qwy1HNMfhbk

In that video a little after 2:00 SW notes that Simon's stagger is too far forward for him (SW) to emulate.

Anyway, whether it's Simon as the prime example or some other player, some pros plant somewhat forward, some more inline. And planting forward has some benefits with the hips, but as SW notes in the video, how far forward you take it depends on "physical dimensions and athletic ability".

 

[sidewinder22]

Does everyone coil?

I assume coil means maintain more shoulder turn than hip turn.

Look at Tiger before and after surgery. Massive difference in angle before, very little after. I suspect a large increase in power with more coil/lag but also much harder on the back - which is why he had the surgery. Shawn Clements looks to me like his lag is much less, just enough to maintain tension so you are pulling the shoulders rather than pushing.

Of course on the downswing/forwardswing, if the shoulders move before hips slide then all is lost.

Again, not claiming expertise, just thinking out loud.

I am also not an expert and I hope someone chimes in to tell me where I am wrong or misunderstanding something, but I've been reading through some research on lower back pain in golfers (trying to answer some questions about my own back with disc golf) and found some interesting bits about trunk rotation correlating to hip rotation. One study found that healthy players who increase their trunk flexion will have higher trunk rotation and less pelvic rotation[1]. Where players with lower back pain will show less trunk flexion which leads to less trunk rotation but more pelvic rotation. The paper suggest that the added range of motion in pelvic cause more rotation out of the lumbar spine. What I understand is the lumbar can handle some rotation, but it doesn't like too and the thoracic spine is better at handling rotation.

It goes onto talk about how a golfer with lower back pain will show less muscle activation in their core muscles than a healthier golfer and how you can see signs of a weak core (and potential lower back issues) by the pelvic tilt the player has when they address the ball. The MyTPI video that talks about pelvic tilt is what lead me down this path about the pelvic and back pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU-MQnnP4Ts

This is all to say that I wonder if this relates to Tiger's surgery and his new swing, but also how well does this information relate to the backhand. My gut tells me pretty well, and it feels like a lot of the advice given here regarding posture follows from a similar point of view about the position of the pelvic and efficient/safe rotation -- as is seen in this advice from Seabass comparing a players posture to Paul's https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3787988&postcount=4.

Finally my biggest (and continued) take away whenever I read about lower back pain is that we can never do enough core and mobility exercises!

[1] Low back pain and golf: A review of biomechanical risk factors

It's not so much about the amount of coil or x-factor separation, but when it occurs and also your posture.
Tiger and Cantlay were both "firing the hips" which is what destroyed their backs.

 

[Waddball]

It's not so much about the amount of coil or x-factor separation, but when it occurs and also your posture.
Tiger and Cantlay were both "firing the hips" which is what destroyed their backs.

Wow, nice find. But thanks a lot, SW. I'm finally creating some repeatable lag, but now it turns out I'm doing it the wrong way, too much hips and not enough thoracic/upper turn.

This stuff, I swear. It's like we're all auditing kinesiology courses in the hopes of getting some kind of honorary degree.