Elite throwers vs 430' throwers

[NoseDownKing]

I've noticed this for a long time, but it recently really caught my attention and I have to ask about it.

I have noticed a clear difference in the accelerations and speed of the elite distance throwers throwing arm vs a 430' thrower (for example). The elite thrower's throwing arm looks like it moves so much slower, compared to 430' throwers. The 430' throwers look like they really crank their arm fast and finish their swing super quickly, while the elite throwers swing takes longer, but end up throwing way further. I'm pretty sure this has to do with tbe fact that the elite throwers accelerate very late into the throw, instead of early like a 430' thrower? But I'm not sure and certainly don't know how to achieve it.

Is it a difference of flat swing vs pendulum swing? If so what should I focus on to achieve a pendulum swing? Should I focus on the shoulders rotating more vertically/in a pendulum? I've tried focusing on making my disc/hand feel like it swings in a pendulum, but that hasn't yielded good results so far.

 

[txmxer]

It is the "whip"

 

[Sheep]

The long answer is elite throwers build a kinetic chain that explodes. While the other people you're seeing throw 400 and feel impressed by (and you shoudln't) are literally throwing as hard as they can to get 400+ feet and they think thats the right way.

And while it works, its just going to tear their body up over time.

 

[timothy42b]

I've noticed this for a long time, but it recently really caught my attention and I have to ask about it.

I have noticed a clear difference in the accelerations and speed of the elite distance throwers throwing arm vs a 430' thrower (for example). The elite thrower's throwing arm looks like it moves so much slower, compared to 430' throwers. The 430' throwers look like they really crank their arm fast and finish their swing super quickly, while the elite throwers swing takes longer, but end up throwing way further. I'm pretty sure this has to do with tbe fact that the elite throwers accelerate very late into the throw, instead of early like a 430' thrower? But I'm not sure and certainly don't know how to achieve it.

When I watch video and especially in person, it looks like a slow swing up until near the end and then ...click!.. they're at followthrough.

But appearances are deceiving. Do we have data on the actual velocity of the disc from backswing to free flight? That would be enlightening I think. We could infer forces and acceleration from that.

The closest I've seen is that image with lines for each frame, but those lines gradually separate, which does not support the late acceleration idea. Possibly there's a thread here that I missed. Certainly ball golf has tons of that kind of data.

 

[txmxer]

There are new technologies that offer more data (speed, spin, nose angle, etc) but to process acceleration may be best done with high speed camera. I'm not sure the data devices are setup for acceleration.

There is a thread about tech disc and a few competitors that are being developed, so you might search for that.

 

[Brychanus]

I've noticed this for a long time, but it recently really caught my attention and I have to ask about it.

I have noticed a clear difference in the accelerations and speed of the elite distance throwers throwing arm vs a 430' thrower (for example). The elite thrower's throwing arm looks like it moves so much slower, compared to 430' throwers. The 430' throwers look like they really crank their arm fast and finish their swing super quickly, while the elite throwers swing takes longer, but end up throwing way further. I'm pretty sure this has to do with tbe fact that the elite throwers accelerate very late into the throw, instead of early like a 430' thrower? But I'm not sure and certainly don't know how to achieve it.

Is it a difference of flat swing vs pendulum swing? If so what should I focus on to achieve a pendulum swing? Should I focus on the shoulders rotating more vertically/in a pendulum? I've tried focusing on making my disc/hand feel like it swings in a pendulum, but that hasn't yielded good results so far.

I think you'll get a few reasonable answers.

Mine might currently be: they're getting much more leverage off the ground with less force/momentum/leverage transfer leaks than most humans. Advantageous levers in a leveraged process over which to accumulate acceleration. Longer levers whipping shorter levers means the interior levers don't need to move as fast for peak velocity, and the effect compounds. Motion of arm looks relatively slow accordingly similar to how the movement of a whip near the handle looks much slower than the tip.

 

[blayed]

IMO I think it is a little bit of camera tricks and confirmation bias. Here is cole redalen, who is a 600ft thrower:


I think his arm moves very fast

 

[Sard0nyx]

IMO I think it is a little bit of camera tricks and confirmation bias. Here is cole redalen, who is a 600ft thrower:


I think his arm moves very fast

I think his arm moves very fast but as late as possible. But your point still stands. Arm speed will correlate with more disc speed.

Also I find his form very intriguing. It seems so simple and smooth.

 

[blayed]

That is because the DG BH really is so simple ... the hard part is getting out of your own way

 

[Sard0nyx]

That is because the DG BH really is so simple ... the hard part is getting out of your own way

I feel like is it were that simple, more people would be throwing 450-500. Maybe it's simple yet complicated at the same time. Especially if you don't have any timing cues from other sports.

 

[Nick Carroll]

"Simple, but not easy." A large part of it is probably just building up through reps. I like the saying about "getting out of your own way." It's too easy to complicate things in pursuit of improvement. And the body doesn't always naturally, intuitively, do what's needed to improve.

 

[bigherm]

I think his arm moves very fast but as late as possible. But your point still stands. Arm speed will correlate with more disc speed.

Also I find his form very intriguing. It seems so simple and smooth.

He was saying on the Jomez practice round that he originally based his form on McBeth, then as he got taller and lankier had to change some things, but you can see it.

 

[Tinkles]

It's easier to perceive acceleration into the pocket vs out IMO. The former blows their load accelerating in and decelerating out. It looks faster because the acceleration is rapid at the start and the radius is smaller.

I don't think there is a correlation to 430 vs elite. I know folks with great form that throw 350 because they just can't recruit the nervous system to accelerate more.

 

[Sheep]

"Simple, but not easy." A large part of it is probably just building up through reps. I like the saying about "getting out of your own way." It's too easy to complicate things in pursuit of improvement. And the body doesn't always naturally, intuitively, do what's needed to improve.

Part of the biggest issue is we, the conscious brain, thinks we need to hold the steering wheel tight while we mash the gas.

When the reality is, we need to mash the gas and only keep 2 fingers on the steering wheel and nudge it down the dragstrip.

A lot of older cars were like this if some of ya'll in here remember. The steering racks on them were so sensitive that if you grabbed it with both hands it was almost impossible to drive it straight.
But if you just held it with a thumb and pointer finger and acted like it was fine motor controls and let the car drive itself as you nudged it down the road. it was easy and fine to drive.

It's the same way. We try to consciously control vs passively and subconsciously control

"getting out of our own way" is really the key. We actively think that its not possible to throw the disc without us being in absolute control of everything. And while you need to be in control, part of it is like you said, getting some reps in for the natural ability. But really just letting loose and letting the body flow.
Because the harder you try and drive the wheel, the stiffer you'll be and you'll be all over the road trying to drive.

 

[Sheep]

It's easier to perceive acceleration into the pocket vs out IMO. The former blows their load accelerating in and decelerating out. It looks faster because the acceleration is rapid at the start and the radius is smaller.

I don't think there is a correlation to 430 vs elite. I know folks with great form that throw 350 because they just can't recruit the nervous system to accelerate more.

This is why "pull" is such a bad thing, and the idea of an over active backswing is bad.
And the idea of trying to actively get the disc into the pocket to early on the forward swing.

People need to understand that if you're doing it right, it will naturally pocket due to rotation. You dont have to try.

All you gotta do is let it swing in and Then start helping it as its moving.

People dont quite understand that you add onto the kentic chain. So after its there, you add into the backside of it with fast twitch muscles. But soon as you start throwing the body around and pulling muscles and jerking and all the other dumb crap people suggest. you destroy the chain.

So yeah, slow into the pocket, explode out. And yes its hard to get it to activate. but its because they are not learning in a way that makes sense to help them push the disc out in a fashion that works.

 

[Kennets]

It's been a while since I've thrown for distance (neck injury denies me that). But whenever I've hit my max, it felt like I barely tried.

I'm not an elite thrower, by any means, but when I've hit my max distance, I've had the same feeling as when I've thrown hammers, bags at work etc. Feels like my "swing" takes forever and the "out of pocket" felt like me clinging on to dear life - like I had no other option than to follow the throw. As naturally as it felt, as hard is it to recreate it.

I'm a firm believer that every person playing disc golf, would benefit from throwing heavy objects, like they would throw a normal BH drive.

Ive thrown 450 that felt like a 300 drive, and 300 where I felt like it should've went 500.

Strange stuff

 

[sidewinder22]

This is why "pull" is such a bad thing, and the idea of an over active backswing is bad.

Pull the door frame with your mAss. If you try to pull it with your arm you will go backwards and not stretch the arm nor pull it taut.

 

[crd 81]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a person can have good form (brace, timing, etc.) and still not accelerate enough through the hit. Granted, having good form will lead to longer throws and won't cause a person to regress, but I think part of the separation between good and great distance is accelerating through the hit.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a person can have good form (brace, timing, etc.) and still not accelerate enough through the hit. Granted, having good form will lead to longer throws and won't cause a person to regress, but I think part of the separation between good and great distance is accelerating through the hit.

I've read an explanation something along the lines of starting the acceleration too quickly in the swing, so that there's less acceleration between the power pocket through release, so that could cause less of a smash factor on the disc after release.

 

[CoachChris]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a person can have good form (brace, timing, etc.) and still not accelerate enough through the hit. Granted, having good form will lead to longer throws and won't cause a person to regress, but I think part of the separation between good and great distance is accelerating through the hit.

It really comes down to your inherited athleticism. Speed and jump height are good examples. You can definitely improve on form, consistency and functional power but if you can only run a 12 sec/100m dash, sadly no amount of form work will get you to a 10 flat.