"Finger Push" and Disc Pivot

[Dan Ensor]

I have noticed a lot of problems relating to disc pivot lately and have encountered it in a few lessons lately.

I think most people don't understand the disc pivot. I believe most people think you should allow the disc to pivot around the index finger in the hand by gripping loosely and letting it swing around.

that is false and will most certainly lead to micro slipping, if not major slipping.

the pivot does happen a little bit. it is not something you try for, it is incidental. It happens because you do other things correctly.

allowing for a loose pivot is pretty counter-productive. the pivot yields strength to the throw because it doesn't happen loosely.

the outer edge of the disc SHOULD come around. it SHOULD come around because you are pulling it around. read that again: pulling it around. that is not the same as letting it swing around.

if you aren't throwing 440'+ (driver power, or equivalent), you should not be getting much, if any, pivot. a strong pivot is a sign of full hitting. aka "actively unloading" aka "hitting the 'out motion'."

the idea is that the lock fingers LOAD tension. if you let the disc slide off loosely, there's no tension to be loaded.

a correct motion/timing forces the lock finger tension to unload as you TUG THROUGH the pivot with the rip point.

your rip finger should not feel any "pull" by the disc. the rip finger should feel like it's "pushing" the disc. in those cases, your pivot has occurred correctly.

i hope this sheds some light on things but i have a feeling it has opened a new can of worms

My question is specifically about the bolded, but I rediscovered the "Myth of Disc Pivot" thread yesterday; it is excellent, fyi.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=393708

So, can anyone shed any light on what would make your finger feel like it's "pushing" the disc? Is this meaning that your finger should be moving faster than the disc?

 

[DougCrawford]

Seems that way- from everything else I have seen, the only way to increase disc speed is to continue accelerating all the way up until the release. If half hitting is the snap of the wrist leading to the release, then the full hit must be accelerating the fingers afterwards.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I can't imagine any pushing sensation at 4:00 on the disc rim.

full hitting is timing the shoulders to open after the wrist is unloaded, so that there's a 2nd disc arc introduced during the ripping off the rim.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I can't imagine any pushing sensation at 4:00 on the disc rim.

Exactly ...

 

[sidewinder22]

My fingers feel like a springs.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Explain people that throw with a two finger grip

two-finger backhand grips yield a much greater amount of tendon flexibility. they are also much weaker. the strength aspect is a double edged sword: people who throw two-finger must have better timing to throw successfully and so most people who throw two-finger are better able to manipulate the disc's weight shift naturally (than people who throw with 4) and get the "edge around."
the downside: two-finger grips have much lower strength potential.

with that in mind, while a higher percentage of two finger grippers may throw 350'+, it is more difficult to throw 450'+. i will often train people to throw with two fingers (to develop shifting the disc's weight) and then have them add four and tell them to "do the same thing you did with two." in most cases this yields an increase of 30-50'.

basically: a two-finger grip makes it easier to feel when the disc's edge should come around. a two-finger grip makes it harder to transfer maximum power when you bring the disc's edge around.

Just wanted to post this, as it worked wonders for me.

 

[Mocheez]

You have to have a passively strong grip to get the springy finger sensation. It's basically a secondary tendon bounce after your wrist comes to a stop.

 

[zj1002]

A lot of the things taught on DGR were EXTREME examples to try. Not so much something you should use on the course. The point of a lot of BlakeT's drills was to isolate a movement and master it. Then incorporate that into your throw. I think in this example he is really just trying to change your mental visualization of the hit.

A big part of what I teach for any motion is to eliminate the idea of a "pull" and put the focus on pushing forward. That is essentially what he is saying here. All of the acceleration with the arm and wrist happens here and is a result of that forward push thinking.

There is an old post on DGR where JR and myself talk in lengthy paragraphs about the "trigger pull" grip. While I'm not a fan of the word pull, it applies here. It kinda alos touches on the article I wrote for HeavyDisc and Jussi's form. If you watch that video of Jussi you can see him tuck him index finger under the rim as he moves into the hit(it looks like he is pulling the trigger on a gun). This was his timing method for making the disc actively pivot. All his weight gets shifted into that "trigger pull" and the disc pivots around it. Its great for learning to FEEL the pivot but not I wouldn't advise making it a part of your throw. I should probably do an article on this next...

 

[notroman]

Hm, I'm not feeling any push or pull on my index finger. Maybe I never really focused on it. I just know that when I hit a disc well I can feel the load in my core and I am pushing the disc itself out, not so much with my finger. The harder I "push" the disc the more spin it effectively has.

 

[clard]

Hm, I'm not feeling any push or pull on my index finger. Maybe I never really focused on it. I just know that when I hit a disc well I can feel the load in my core and I am pushing the disc itself out, not so much with my finger. The harder I "push" the disc the more spin it effectively has.

How does one measure spin?

 

[notroman]

How does one measure spin?

I can tell by how long the discs stay afloat and how stable they fly

A disc with more spin stays in the air longer and resists turn/fade more.

 

[clard]

While that is true I think that a clean release with no torque is what determines this. I see few non pros who actually release without plane changes that cause a disc to fly more understable than it should. Proper technique gives "enough" spin, but I don't think that's the key component that changes from one throw to another. And since there is no easy way to measure it it's a pretty difficult thing to talk about.

 

[Dan Ensor]

While that is true I think that a clean release with no torque is what determines this. I see few non pros who actually release without plane changes that cause a disc to fly more understable than it should. Proper technique gives "enough" spin, but I don't think that's the key component that changes from one throw to another. And since there is no easy way to measure it it's a pretty difficult thing to talk about.

A proper disc pivot will give more spin than a loose pivot. I've heard a few people who found "snap" say their discs flew "lazy" afterwards. So I'd guess that non-pros change their spin with their disc pivot more often than pros, since a pro probably doesn't want to have a loose pivot and can avoid it more often. Excepting upshots ...

 

[hook_nuts]

Does anyone feel like they finger bang the disc when they get the full hit?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I feel like we're talking about the "truth-i-ness" of spin. Remeber this:

There's an increase in spin, up to a certain ejection speed and then it decreases again.

If you're throwing 400-450' regularly - I'd wager that your ejection speed is 60mph or faster, and that most likely your disc has LESS spin than if you threw it 50mph.

 

[notroman]

While that is true I think that a clean release with no torque is what determines this. I see few non pros who actually release without plane changes that cause a disc to fly more understable than it should. Proper technique gives "enough" spin, but I don't think that's the key component that changes from one throw to another. And since there is no easy way to measure it it's a pretty difficult thing to talk about.

I just know that when I'm doing field work and I'm throwing hyzer lines once I get to my flippy mids I have to really snap the **** out of them to make sure they hold the hyzer and don't flip up on me. It almost seems as if I'm throwing or "pushing" the disc out with a lot more force to achieve the desired flight. If I'm lazy they won't hold that hyzer angle.

Same with the super late turnover shots... If I want to REALLY delay a turn on a disc, I have to make sure I snap it a lot harder. This in effect keeps the disc on a stable line for a lot longer before the speed of the throw finally catches up to the disc and has it start turning over.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I feel like we're talking about the "truth-i-ness" of spin. Remeber this:

There's an increase in spin, up to a certain ejection speed and then it decreases again.

If you're throwing 400-450' regularly - I'd wager that your ejection speed is 60mph or faster, and that most likely your disc has LESS spin than if you threw it 50mph.

Any info on how far those went? Or, even better, video?

 

[notroman]

As for the spin/speed comparison... I wonder if that's partially due to the fact that to increase ejection speed you need to add so much leverage to your body and the acceleration happens so fast that it's tougher to get the timing right to get a full hit on a the throw. So most of the people out there stuck at the 450-550 plateau have tons of spin at the release or great acceleration, but not both. I'm sure the really big arms like Simon/McBeth/Wiggins have it dialed in where they can still put a ton of spin on the disc while having crazy acceleration which results in the next level distance bump. Without that spin I can't see how else they can throw putters 400-450 since putters are so sensitive to spin.

 

[zj1002]

I feel like we're talking about the "truth-i-ness" of spin. Remeber this:

There's an increase in spin, up to a certain ejection speed and then it decreases again.

If you're throwing 400-450' regularly - I'd wager that your ejection speed is 60mph or faster, and that most likely your disc has LESS spin than if you threw it 50mph.

You are pretty spot on with those #s. I hit 75mph on the radar gun when Simon and the Flying Circus came to town. I think I hit around 83 while playing GUTs back in 2011(it was mid 80s). These were both with lightweight lids. With discs I couldn't get past 71 mph. I max out around 525ft-500ft in normal conditions.

Anyways Simon was clocking in at 91-94mph with lids and high 80s with discs on 360 degree throws. His acceleration into and through the hit is just insane. He all his weight is going into it. Full body commitment. His ability to clear his hips and get moving forward is ELITE athleticism and coordination for any sport. I'd say every mph adds about 5ft in normal conditions.

 

[RFrance]

I feel like we're talking about the "truth-i-ness" of spin. Remeber this:

There's an increase in spin, up to a certain ejection speed and then it decreases again.

If you're throwing 400-450' regularly - I'd wager that your ejection speed is 60mph or faster, and that most likely your disc has LESS spin than if you threw it 50mph.

If you look closely at the data you see that the line is actually just drawn through the theoretical rolling speed data and not the actual throws. Here is a plot with just the actual throws data and curve fit with a second order polynomial. I think it shows what you are saying better.