Forehand wobble, flutter

[centervolume]

Greetings

Working on my forehand technique currently and having a hard time losing the flutter / wobble that is coming immediately on release.

Not sure where to start, I tried a few things like watching for wrist roll over which helped straighten the flight path (less anhyzer, LHFH) but the flutter must be coming from somewhere else.

Anyone have resources or tips that helped them with their forehand throws ?

Any help appreciated as always

cv

 

[sidewinder22]

I often see this in players that tip over the plant leg with the rear foot stuck back, instead of shifting forward.

 

[Rastnav]

Greetings

Working on my forehand technique currently and having a hard time losing the flutter / wobble that is coming immediately on release.

Not sure where to start, I tried a few things like watching for wrist roll over which helped straighten the flight path (less anhyzer, LHFH) but the flutter must be coming from somewhere else.

Anyone have resources or tips that helped them with their forehand throws ?

Any help appreciated as always

cv

The piece of advice in a Scott Stokely video that helped me was, "Don't follow through".

Now he heavily caveats that, but flutter/wobble on the FH frequently indicates that the disc is moving too fast for the amount of spin it has. The solution for this problem is too make sure you actively snap the wrist while abbreviating your follow through.

Some thoughts that can help make this a reality: Make sure the wrist is moving faster than the arm at release. Snap the throw like snapping a rat-tailed towel. Keep the elbow pinned to your side as you follow through (but the elbow comes away in the back swing).

Once you have a solid forehand, those thoughts are less applicable, but they should start you on the right path to flutter freedom.

All three of his points here are good.

 

[SaROCaM]

1. Grip: make sure you have the disc all the way into the space between your thumb and forefinger. Lots of types of grips; try them out and use whatever is comfortable for you, but don't have a gap between your disc and that part of your hand.

2. Spin: need to put more spin on the disc; grip is part of this, but also wrist action.

 

[JuanA]

...Snap the throw like snapping a rat-tailed towel.

This is what helped me out at first too.

Once I got better at a forehand flick, progressing to a forehand throw was easier.

 

[Mocheez]

Don't fling the disc forward. Think of it as a top with a string that you are pulling to make it spin smoothly.

 

[centervolume]

Thanks much folks, this will give me something to chew on. The spin speed issue makes sense. I am trying different grips and feel like that issue is getting a little more comfortable at least. I am not clear on looseness v. tightness of grip.

It is my understanding that having a final pivot point at release is an essential part of most of not all throws (I may be wrong). I have seen tutorials that recommend a loose grip at first and then pinching the thumb / forefinger(s) pivot point at the point of release. So I've been fumbling around there, now it seems that may work itself out more or less once I get the wrist snap more involved. This is a roundabout way of asking you all what you think about looseness v firmness and to see if my thinking is 'on the right track'.

In terms of disc types, is it generally best to nail down fundamentals with the putter and then expand out from there? or will my forehand development be better or worse served by other types of disc?

In the same vein (sorry for so many questions in one post), I'm approaching this sport in a progressive fashion so I'm trying to start different aspects in a stripped down way. As a result I'm trying to work from a standing position first so the extra mechanics of the approach don't interfere or can be incorporated later. So Sidewinder, when you say flutter can come from not shifting weight properly (being out over my feet or 'tipped over' -- am I reading that expression right?) does this apply to a standing throw as well??

stay safe and thanks for the help

 

[Mocheez]

Grip and wrist loose as disc is spinning clockwise and wrist bending back. Tight once it changes direction and starts spinning counterclockwise. Don't accelerate until after the change in direction.

 

[sidewinder22]

In the same vein (sorry for so many questions in one post), I'm approaching this sport in a progressive fashion so I'm trying to start different aspects in a stripped down way. As a result I'm trying to work from a standing position first so the extra mechanics of the approach don't interfere or can be incorporated later. So Sidewinder, when you say flutter can come from not shifting weight properly (being out over my feet or 'tipped over' -- am I reading that expression right?) does this apply to a standing throw as well??

stay safe and thanks for the help

Yes. It comes down to creating lag tension / pulled taut like ball on string so there is no slack or scrunching that might easily introduce wobble. Move forward centered inside your posture and arm/disc lag back and then sling shot forward.

 

[ray1970]

As mentioned, I think the wobble is basically a lack of spin or snap.

I had (have?) a horrible forehand. It's gotten better but when I first started throwing forehand everything wobbled out of my hand. Took me quite a bit of practice but now I have a horrible forehand that is free of wobble.

Someday I'll work on adding distance but for now my forehand is only suitable to short approach shots.

 

[Answers to Lucky]

Yeah, the wobble is from too much arm and not enough wrist. On the plus side, once you have enough wrist you can give it a lot of arm.

I taught my kids how to throw forehand by bracing my forearm against a pole and throwing the disc with only wrist, no arm movement at all and explaining "it's a spin, not a throw". I can't get them out too often, but they're coming along well.

 

[armiller]

I'm a little late to this party, but I'll keep it short. Wobble can mean a lot of things but I think the crucial issue is getting the wrist action right, or "pure", so that it imparts the right force onto the disc. (You could say, in other words, that you're avoiding "off-axis torque." ) Details like grip and some other fine details are important, but the key is finding out what works for you while still imparting efficient rotational and linear velocity to the disc. If you find something that "works" for you and still can't throw, say, 100 feet, then you probably need to reevaluate.

In terms of disc types, is it generally best to nail down fundamentals with the putter and then expand out from there? or will my forehand development be better or worse served by other types of disc?

I recommend starting with a putter or at least a mid. A mid like a Buzzz is an awesome forehand disc, both for practice and on the course. Nevertheless, it still has enough high speed stability to mask some form flaws. People often start with warp speed drivers (or say, even 9 speed and over) and love them because you can get away with all kinds of bad form and still get okay results on the course. But if you're not capable of playing forehand putter or lid catch at 50 feet, I'd argue that there's something intrinsically wrong with your forehand wrist motion. Anything from an Aviar to a Wizard to an Ultrastar to a Comet should serve this purpose.

Once you get things figured out a bit, adding all the normal drivers is understandable. And I personally feel that a full power forehand is a bit of a different beast than a controlled, 200' standstill. However, not being able to throw a controlled putter or mid forehand (where wobble doesn't adversely affect the disc flight) is a pretty good diagnostic, showing that your forehand mechanism needs some work.

 

[Answers to Lucky]

(You could say, in other words, that you're avoiding "off-axis torque." )

Needs a more technical sounding term.

 

[StandingOnShoulders]

And I personally feel that a full power forehand is a bit of a different beast than a controlled, 200' standstill.

armiller can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[Meillo]

I removed the forehand flutter this way:

1) Grip the disc firm.

2) Use Nate Sexton's forehand grip: pads of index and middle finger on top of each other and tucked in to be right opposite of the thumb. This gives a better pivot point (but has disadvantages on the amount of spin you can generate and for anny angles).

3) Throw with your elbow. The underarm and wrist will follow the motion. (This different for the short ``flick of the wrist'' forehand approaches.)

4) Don't force it.

 

[armiller]

And I personally feel that a full power forehand is a bit of a different beast than a controlled, 200' standstill.

armiller can you explain what you mean by this?

It's funny; I've never really thought that much about what I mean by this, though I've been saying it for at least a few years.

It stems from two related but opposite experiences that I think many of us can identify with. On the one hand, some beginners start out throwing 120% using a Boss or Destroyer or Firebird or other disc that needs a lot of arm speed and simultaneously masks tons of form flaws because it's relatively overstable. Those throwers typically have a difficult time throwing a controlled approach with a midrange or putter. On the other hand, some beginners develop a controlled forehand, or maybe had a nice touch forehand from throwing ultimate discs. But then when attempting to throw higher speed drivers it's a bit more of an adjustment. (By the way, I'd say I have observed the first experience more often.)

I can identify with both experiences, and I feel like I actively have to keep both sides of my game alive and well. On the one hand, more controlled, standstill or one-step forehands from 40' to 200' feet using a Polecat, Buzzz, or Teebird are a big part of my game. On the other hand, I throw plenty of forehand drives using Firebirds, Vultures, Undertakers, or Crank/Katana type discs. I used to consistently approach 400', but now I'm most comfortable in the 300'-350' range.

Something about the one-step or standstill controlled forehand allows me to focus almost exclusively on the wrist motion of the forehand. I can control the hyzer angle, nose angle, and release direction quite well, and that makes it useful for hitting all kinds of lines. I'm always throwing these at well under 100% power, and I almost never turn over the disc unless it's part of my intended throw.

It can be a different story when I go for a full power distance throw. I think it's just that trying to put more power into the throw increases the potential for error, whether at the wrist, elbow, shoulder, or spinal axis. In the end, an error in any of these spots can ruin the throw. Maybe the most common result is yanking the disc left (for a right hand forehand), but it's also very possible to throw into the ground, throw nose up, etc.

Both types of throw are important on the course. I think you can get away throwing a serviceable forehand "power drive" without perfecting a proper forehand wrist action, but probably not the more controlled type. This is all my opinion, of course, and maybe I'm alone on some of this.

I will say, I use identical grips for all forehands, whether with a Polecat, Buzzz, Firebird, or Katana. Of course, making it work for different disc shapes can look a bit different, but I have my fingers and wrist oriented the same way for all.

 

[azplaya25]

It's funny; I've never really thought that much about what I mean by this, though I've been saying it for at least a few years.

It stems from two related but opposite experiences that I think many of us can identify with. On the one hand, some beginners start out throwing 120% using a Boss or Destroyer or Firebird or other disc that needs a lot of arm speed and simultaneously masks tons of form flaws because it's relatively overstable. Those throwers typically have a difficult time throwing a controlled approach with a midrange or putter. On the other hand, some beginners develop a controlled forehand, or maybe had a nice touch forehand from throwing ultimate discs. But then when attempting to throw higher speed drivers it's a bit more of an adjustment. (By the way, I'd say I have observed the first experience more often.)

I can identify with both experiences, and I feel like I actively have to keep both sides of my game alive and well. On the one hand, more controlled, standstill or one-step forehands from 40' to 200' feet using a Polecat, Buzzz, or Teebird are a big part of my game. On the other hand, I throw plenty of forehand drives using Firebirds, Vultures, Undertakers, or Crank/Katana type discs. I used to consistently approach 400', but now I'm most comfortable in the 300'-350' range.

Something about the one-step or standstill controlled forehand allows me to focus almost exclusively on the wrist motion of the forehand. I can control the hyzer angle, nose angle, and release direction quite well, and that makes it useful for hitting all kinds of lines. I'm always throwing these at well under 100% power, and I almost never turn over the disc unless it's part of my intended throw.

It can be a different story when I go for a full power distance throw. I think it's just that trying to put more power into the throw increases the potential for error, whether at the wrist, elbow, shoulder, or spinal axis. In the end, an error in any of these spots can ruin the throw. Maybe the most common result is yanking the disc left (for a right hand forehand), but it's also very possible to throw into the ground, throw nose up, etc.

Both types of throw are important on the course. I think you can get away throwing a serviceable forehand "power drive" without perfecting a proper forehand wrist action, but probably not the more controlled type. This is all my opinion, of course, and maybe I'm alone on some of this.

I will say, I use identical grips for all forehands, whether with a Polecat, Buzzz, Firebird, or Katana. Of course, making it work for different disc shapes can look a bit different, but I have my fingers and wrist oriented the same way for all.

Great post, and I agree with the two different use cases for a forehand. I've noticed when I play a bomber course where I'm throwing lots of power forehands, then try to throw a control shot with a beat Roc for example, that is when I have issues. Switching from power to control. My solution have been, wind dependent, to throw more understable plastic even for longer shots. It's crazy how far you can bomb a beat eagle dx on a forehand hyzer flip with a controlled flick at about 80% power, especially if you get your lower body/weight shift correct. I can usually get that type of throw out to 325ish with a ton of accuracy, and I think it's a lot easier on the arm.

 

[DGVT]

Very glad I discovered this thread. I have not figured out any ability to eliminate flutter right off the hand but thinking about my hand moving faster than my wrist and not getting much spin makes a lot of sense. My game is totally limited since I have no forehand at all and rely on backhands for any type of escape.

 

[Trevdor]

I've been struggling with wobble in my forehand as well. I've noticed that when I'm just practicing a flick that I can throw my really lightweight Air Truth smooth without any wobble, but when I go to a heavier disc the wobble is back. Think that's a good sign that I'm not getting enough spin or snap? Will that just come with time as I strengthen my wrist and motion? Or does it show a technique error?

 

[Meillo]

A firm grip and the disc tucked well into the area between thumb and index finger helps a lot. Loose grip will pretty much always lead to wobble. Tell yourself that you can grip the disc as strong as you want, it'll rip out automatically; there's no need to ``throw it out''.