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Future of Innova in Question?

If Innova was as bad as everyone seems to want to think they are, they would have patented overmolding and then not done it. Then they could have prevented anyone else from doing it and wouldn't have to listen to people complain about how they are not innovative anymore.
 
i am surprised a big sports company like wilson or spalding didn't pick up lightning. that would be a great line to get into the wal-mart casual player market with.
 
Frank Delicious said:
Innova will make an overmolded disc when they see $$$ for doing it (and if they can do it in a way that doesn't involve patent violation (or if they can fight the patent somehow)).

There we go. If Innova can make money making overmolded discs etc and so forth then they'd do it. And because they have such a large share of the market smaller companies are left to innovate. Thread over! Yay!
 
Roc Lover said:
chainsmoker said:
I think at some point Innova is going to have to respond to the overmolded disc.
Why? Im not trying to start an argument for or against either company,I wonder why you feel like the overmold (which isnt original, just done better by MVP) is something that they "have" to compete with or have an answer for?

Because overmolding is the only way to get significantly more weight on the outside of the disc. Simply doing this makes most traditional mold designs simply fly better. That said, I don't think Innova has to respond yet. As others have said, it's only when they get hit in the pocketbook that they'll be reactive in any fashion.
 
discspeed said:
Because overmolding is the only way to get significantly more weight on the outside of the disc.

What if someone invents another way? Seems like this is the type of thinking that keeps innovation from happening.
 
Frank Delicious said:
discspeed said:
Because overmolding is the only way to get significantly more weight on the outside of the disc.

What if someone invents another way? Seems like this is the type of thinking that keeps innovation from happening.

I can think of a number of ways that a manufacturer could tinker with things to get more weight on the outside...By design, perhaps by spinning the mold after the plastic is injected to make weighting agents migrate to the outside, etc. Any method I can theorize is still not going to be as controlled or get as much of the weight to the outside as overmolding. It will be very interesting indeed though if other designers experiment with this.
 
i am surprised a big sports company like wilso or spalding didn't pick up lightning. that would be a great line to get into the wal-mart casual player market with.
"hi we're a major sports manufacturer looking to own the disc golf market in major retail... is this your garage?"
"yup this here is a turnkey operation.. I make everything myself at my house."
"that's fantastic! exactly what we were looking for!!"
 
discspeed said:
Frank Delicious said:
discspeed said:
Because overmolding is the only way to get significantly more weight on the outside of the disc.

What if someone invents another way? Seems like this is the type of thinking that keeps innovation from happening.

I can think of a number of ways that a manufacturer could tinker with things to get more weight on the outside...By design, perhaps by spinning the mold after the plastic is injected to make weighting agents migrate to the outside, etc. Any method I can theorize is still not going to be as controlled or get as much of the weight to the outside as overmolding. It will be very interesting indeed though if other designers experiment with this.

Just to play devils' advocate.......Suppose we didn't always operate under the same technical standards. Not just to do with overmolding, but with disc design in general. We all know the Ninja isn't PDGA approved and I for one wouldn't throw it if it was. Suppose a mid or smaller level company (or Innova, possibly) made an advance in shape or material that altered the playing field substantially. I am not a physicist, though there are some on this forum who might posit what advances could meet that criteria. Now, said disc is outside the rules, but enough golfers, even out of our 1% were to petition the PDGA to change the standards. I would be interested to see what all the current or future companies could or would do with a level playing field to expand into.
KP
 
double overmolds are the only way to get more weight on the outside of the overmold
 
please put a metal band in the rim somehow to create an assload of weight in the rim.

rimshot: how we gonna fit metallica in a disc?
 
It seems as though Innova's focus of late has been the expansion of disc golf on a more grass roots level. I think they aren't terribly concerned with alienating the 1% of us because we're a drop in the bucket. The shift from USDGC to huge money event to pro-am handicapped event is another example of this. Innova seems to be marginalizing the hardcores in order to increase the visibility and scope of the game at the amateur (that includes the weekenders) level. But even if they're marginalizing them to a certain extent, how many of you bought an Archon or a Vulcan or a Wahoo or will buy a TeeDevil just to see how it flies? I'm sure the answer is a lot, and at the end of the day even if we're grumbling about lapses in innovation, we're still ponying up to give their discs a shot.
 
When I used to throw the discus they had different discuses with different rim weight ratings. they had a metal center core a wooden middle core and a metal rim. the ones with 80% rim weight had huge metal rims and small cores. They also weigh 2kg (2000g). My school was too cheap to get the nice wood and metal composite ones so we always threw the rubber ones. I personally couldn't have afforded the $150 for a perimeter weighted discus.

There is a technology that puts more weight at the rim, the Aerobie ring. but it's a ring not a disc. so by pure semantics it defies the nature of DISC golf.
 
As has been stated many times, Innova doesn't have to care about making the best discs. I'm sure they try to make the best discs they can obviously, and at one time in their history they had to do that to be on top. Nowadays, they could mold their discs out of petrified dog shit and they'd still have 90% of the market share as long as they keep making national distribution deals with Walmart and the like.
 
Roc Lover said:
chainsmoker said:
I think at some point Innova is going to have to respond to the overmolded disc.
Why? Im not trying to start an argument for or against either company,I wonder why you feel like the overmold (which isnt original, just done better by MVP) is something that they "have" to compete with or have an answer for?
I guess my one sentence post could have been worded better. What I was trying to say is that it seems Innova has run the string out on their current design philosophy and may want to try something new. So no, they don't need to make an overmolded disc a dimpled disc a textured disc or anything else that has been done or is being done currently but I do think they could use something innovative in their lineup. I don't think the Ion or the Vector are going to have a spot in my bag but mvp discs do fly differently and I think it has to do with weight distribution.
What if Innova was the new kid on the block could you make a case for a lot of their discs from the past 3 or 4 years? We are much more critical of new companies and that could really hurt Innova in the end.
 
chainsmoker said:
What if Innova was the new kid on the block could you make a case for a lot of their discs from the past 3 or 4 years?

What if they were a race car company and tried making planes?
 
Frank Delicious said:
chainsmoker said:
What if Innova was the new kid on the block could you make a case for a lot of their discs from the past 3 or 4 years?

What if they were a race car company and tried making planes?
saab: born from jets
 
Innova is laughing their heads off as we speak of this. They'll just add another style (think dx, pro, champ, star) that they'll slap a name on and it will just be the over molded version of their discs.

Want a more gyroscopic teebird? Pick the new Innova REVO Teebird!

They'll find a way to win out in the end, the DX market isn't this terribly complex.
 
discspeed said:
...I assumed a couple of years ago that when other manufacturers came up and invested more money into making better products that it would make Innova better by forcing them to follow suit (this is capitalism)...

This is wrong, capitalism stands in opposition to the free market. Capital=money and in capitalism money=power. Capitalism tends to accumulate power and wealth in the hands of a few at the expense of the many. Capitalism crushes or appropriates innovation and fresh competition as it sees fit. Capitalism does so by directly manipulating the legal system (money=justice), by altering/crafting/changing laws (via campaign donations, lobbying, political parties, etc.) to suit its needs while punishing small competitors (by imposing a tax system, licensing requirements, and regulations that favor wealthy firms over smaller firms), by controlling related portions of the market (establishing exclusivity clauses in contracts with suppliers, controlling transport, dominating the retail front end, etc.), by having enough money to gain access to large troves of gov't cash and contracts, etc., etc..

discspeed said:
...They have streamlined their manufacturing...

That's the only kind of innovation you see in capitalism, which is figuring out a way to reduce your labor costs (lower wages and benefits for workers) and make your product cheaper and cheaper, while hoping that the reduced quality doesn't scare away your customer base (not a problem in this country...people don't care about quality).

discspeed said:
...they are making very good money and can more or less keep up with demand at a time where other manufacturers are barely making a profit and are forced to reinvest all their money to make a more expensive product so that some people will choose it over Innova.

In other words, the issue is free market vs. capitalism:
-If the free market wins, then Innova is toast because their products cannot continue to compete if customers have true choice.
-If capitalism wins, then Innova will dominate market share for decades to come.

The answer to this question is complicated. In sectors of the economy where capitalism is defeating/destroying the free market, you see larger firms getting ever larger without adding much value or innovation to their products. Examples are ubiquitous in this era of corporate agglomeration (Ford, GM, & Chrysler being the classic examples...now we have GE, Walmart, Bank of America, Boeing, etc.). They spend 99% of their efforts figuring out how to screw over labor, avoid taxes, lobby the gov't, get corporate welfare, and extract the last drop of assets from their firms so that they can pad the bottom line, celebrate their parasitism, and shower themselves in bonuses and stock options. That doesn't lead to great products.

I suggest we wait and see what happens. The retail end is very important, and a lot depends on whether retailers stay dedicated to allowing access to all manufacturers on their shelves. I know many capitalistic strategies that might work for Innova. For example, here is a strategy inspired by Microsoft: While they still enjoy majority market share, Innova offers to buy out innovative competing company X directly. If company X resists, or wants good money for their business, Innova turns the screws by simply telling retailers like Clearwater Disc Golf Store that they won't allow them to sell Innova discs any longer, unless they stop selling discs from company X. This won't hurt Innova much because they can simply start selling their discs directly to customers through their website, and going around retailers (perhaps even selling their discs online for less than the wholesale cost). Meanwhile, company X faces the risk of losing market share, and has no choice but to sell out to Innova. Innova takes that firm over, fires all the more talented staff, extracts the remaining assets of X, walks away secure with its market share, and cashes in on the deal. Wet, lather, rinse, repeat. That's how its done in America.
 
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